X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Bill Bradburry" Received: from omr-a017e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.11) with ESMTPS id 8752693 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:33:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.68; envelope-from=bbradburry@verizon.net Received: from mtaout-mca02.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mca02.mx.aol.com [172.26.221.78]) by omr-a017e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 765C438000A2 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Desktop (Desktop [96.226.204.48]) by mtaout-mca02.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id CD73338000097 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:33:24 -0400 (EDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: rebuild Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:33:27 -0500 Message-ID: <04C47976086F4574A5AC33E1CE6D3015@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1CCA3.CE5927E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AdHMINxz/7nBrISPRKqz7yICShQDbQAqXh6g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1add4e576b04244741 X-AOL-IP: 96.226.204.48 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1CCA3.CE5927E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew, I hope you have better luck than I with the radiators mounted behind the engine. I tried this and I was never able to get the necessary cooling. I had the ducting bring the air around behind the radiator like you do. This caused the air to have to make a 180 to enter the radiator, then another 180 to exit the cowl. I was just never successful in convincing the air to do this loop the loop. I saw a rear mounted radiator that I thought might work where they had sealed in a deck on the top of the engine that only allowed the air that entered the nostrils to exit thru the radiator and oil cooler like you see on the Lycosaurus. I just didn't have the wherewithal to do that with the Mazda. I finally copied Tracy's radiator installation on the RV-8/20B. (all my better ideas were copied from somebody!) I think that if I were to do it all over again, I might move the starter from the bottom of the PSRU plate, to the co-pilot side of that plate, which would provide room to install the radiator under the engine as far forward as I could get it, and mount the oil cooler on the co-pilot side. This would allow the chin scoop to feed the radiator, the right nostril to feed the oil cooler, and the left nostril to feed the engine. This gives the air pretty much a straight shot thru the cowl. (I am not certain who this is copied from, but rest assured it is from someone!) Right now I can climb full power to about pattern altitude at Vy (100knots), then I need to reduce power and/or speed up to bring the temps back in line. I cruise at about 180 water and 170 oil. I think that if I made the changes I mentioned, I could climb unlimited and would need cowl flaps for cruise. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 7:56 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: rebuild took some photos yesterday of heat exchangers while motor is out for new seals. Found a old lifting apparatus from the hospital that is perfect for removing and rebuilding engine. Radiator and oil cooler are in the only logical place under the cowl but getting clean air to them is problematic, cowl is just to tight to place them anywhere else so not sure what I can do to improve flow, testing with a leaf blower showed good distribution of air across the exchangers, so maybe opening up duct entry for more air is a possible solution.other solution seems to be to move them behind the spar and use a belly scoop.Andrew Regards Andrew Martin +61 0427477144 +61 8 6365 5648 +61 8 9924 1145 andrew@martinag.com.au On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Jeff Whaley wrote: Hello Andrew, first congrats on getting airborne . if you're blowing steam between the housings check them for warping or rather ensure there is none. Do you have any pictures of your setup? - One is worth a thousand words. 28 sq" total air inlet seems a bit small to be feeding both the radiator and oil cooler . my 2 cents worth . Jeff From: Andrew Martin [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:46 PM Subject: rebuild Well, been about 10 days since I steam cleaned the engine during the first flight, due to work just managed to pull the engine apart, bit of fun for a novice, must say I was a bit apprehensive but now am wishing I had built it from scratch initially. for the life of me I cannot see anything obvious as being a problem so just going to get some o'rings and reassemble as per the manual. Now the whole problem was caused by the idiot operating it, I was so preoccupied trying to get oil cooling under control I had forgotten that I had the wrong coolant inlet hose on, I had done this on purpose during construction as it enables purging the air from the system without the multiple heat cycles saving time. the needed reinforced hose was still on the shelf. so there goes, I admit it. and to think Lynn has made comment about this in his posts recently, I can only kick myself. Nuff said. A few observations My plane flies beautifully. I'm really happy with it, it feels safe. The exit air openings on the top front of the cowl work (Peter Garrison/Mellmoth style). could quite easily see the low pressure area working above the cowl during the steam clean. coolant on the windscreen is an annoyance but no worse than flying in rain. Oil could be worse but a cessna with catastrophic oil leak puts it on the windscreen too. I saw the very first puff out of the cowl and was able to land within a couple of minutes with coolant remaining. steam exiting engine between rotor housing & rear end plate in region of spark plugs. once the engine cooled down refilled coolant, engine started & ran as normal just slow pressure leak. Oil cooler is 20b Cosmo, but is just not working good enough, think it is because it shares plenum with radiator and radiator possibly has less air flow restriction, don't know. will try again when motor is going then attack the cooling system. May even start from scratch if it tries to scare me again. Currently plenum opens just under the prop 28 sq" diffuses for 700mm/27.5" to 68 sq" turns about 80 deg up at the firewall base, is pinched to 59 sq" in the turn into a wedge duct on the back of the radiators which sit side by side. coolant radiator fin area is 450mm x 380mm x 60mm, oil 220mm x 290mm about same thickness but denser fins. air the exits on top front of cowl & 3 exits on bottom. I always presumed my cooling problems caused by the exits as I can run the engine all day at reasonable power on the ground with top cowl off. but obviously not at rpms capable of collapsing bottom hose Regards Andrew This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1CCA3.CE5927E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrew,

=

 

I hope you have better luck than I = with the radiators mounted behind the engine.    I tried this = and I was never able to get the necessary cooling.  I had the ducting bring = the air around behind the radiator like you do.   This caused the air = to have to make a 180 to enter the radiator, then another 180 to exit the = cowl.  I was just never successful in convincing the air to do this loop the = loop.

 

I saw a rear mounted radiator that = I thought might work where they had sealed in a deck on the top of the engine that = only allowed the air that entered the nostrils to exit thru the radiator and = oil cooler like you see on the Lycosaurus.  I just didn’t have = the wherewithal to do that with the Mazda.

 

I finally copied Tracy’s radiator installation = on the RV-8/20B.  (all my better ideas were copied from = somebody!)

 

I think that if I were to do it all = over again, I might move the starter from the bottom of the PSRU plate, to = the co-pilot side of that plate, which would provide room to install the = radiator under the engine as far forward as I could get it, and mount the oil = cooler on the co-pilot side.   This would allow the chin scoop to feed = the radiator, the right nostril to feed the oil cooler, and the left nostril = to feed the engine.  This gives the air pretty much a straight shot = thru the cowl.  (I am not certain who this is copied from, but rest assured = it is from someone!)

 

Right now I can climb full power to = about pattern altitude at Vy (100knots), then I need to reduce power and/or = speed up to bring the temps back in line.  I cruise at about 180 water and = 170 oil.  I think that if I made the changes I mentioned, I could climb unlimited and would need cowl flaps for = cruise.

 

Bill

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, = 2016 7:56 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = rebuild

 

took some photos yesterday of heat exchangers while motor is out = for new seals. Found a old lifting apparatus from the hospital = that is perfect for removing and rebuilding engine. Radiator and oil cooler are = in the only logical place under the cowl but getting clean air to them is = problematic, cowl is just to tight to place them anywhere else so not sure what I can = do to improve flow, testing with a leaf blower showed good distribution of air = across the exchangers, so maybe opening up duct entry for more air is a possible solution.other solution seems to be to move them behind = the spar and use a belly scoop.Andrew


Regards

Andrew Martin

+61 0427477144
+61 8 6365 5648
+61 8 9924 1145
andrew@martinag.com.au


 

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hello Andrew, first congrats on getting airborne = … if you’re blowing steam between the housings check them for = warping or rather ensure there is none.

Do you have any pictures of your setup? – = One is worth a thousand words.

28 sq” total air inlet seems a bit small to = be feeding both the radiator and oil cooler … my 2 cents worth = …  

Jeff

 

From: Andrew Martin [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 16, = 2016 11:46 PM
Subject: = rebuild

 

Well, = been about 10 days since I steam cleaned the engine during the first flight, due to = work just managed to pull the engine apart, bit of fun for a novice, must say = I was a bit apprehensive but now am wishing I had built it from scratch = initially. for the life of me I cannot see anything obvious as being a problem so = just going to get some o'rings and reassemble as per the = manual.

Now = the whole problem was caused by the idiot operating it, I was so preoccupied = trying to get oil cooling under control I had forgotten that I had the wrong = coolant inlet hose on, I had done this on purpose during construction as it = enables purging the air from the system without the multiple heat cycles saving = time. the needed reinforced hose was still on the shelf. so there goes, I = admit it. and to think Lynn has made comment about this in his posts recently, I can only kick = myself. Nuff said.

A few = observations

My = plane flies beautifully. I'm really happy with it, it feels = safe.

The = exit air openings on the top front of the cowl work (Peter Garrison/Mellmoth = style). could quite easily see the low pressure area working above the cowl = during the steam clean. coolant on the windscreen is an annoyance but no worse than = flying in rain. Oil could be worse but a cessna with catastrophic oil leak puts = it on the windscreen too. I saw the very first puff out of the cowl and was = able to land within a couple of minutes with coolant remaining. steam exiting = engine between rotor housing & rear end plate in region of spark plugs. = once the engine cooled down refilled coolant, engine started & ran as normal = just slow pressure leak.

Oil = cooler is 20b Cosmo, but is just not working good enough, think it is because it = shares plenum with radiator and radiator possibly has less air flow = restriction, don't know. will try again when motor is going then attack the cooling system. = May even start from scratch if it tries to scare me = again.

Currently plenum opens just under the prop 28 sq" diffuses for 700mm/27.5" to = 68 sq" turns about 80 deg up at the firewall base, is pinched to 59 = sq" in the turn into a wedge duct on the back of the radiators which sit = side by side. coolant radiator fin area is 450mm x 380mm x 60mm, oil 220mm x = 290mm about same thickness but denser fins. air the exits on top front of cowl = & 3 exits on bottom.

I = always presumed my cooling problems caused by the exits as I can run the engine all day = at reasonable power on the ground with top cowl off. but obviously not at = rpms capable of collapsing bottom hose



Regards

Andrew

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended = only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct = our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. =

 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01D1CCA3.CE5927E0--