X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Tracy Crook" Received: from mail-it0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.10) with ESMTPS id 8713260 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 08:11:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.41; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by mail-it0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z123so6756604itg.0 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 05:11:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date:importance:in-reply-to :references; bh=F0EOG1c75KUNC1ndUxG7rtUEkpJHENQQEk/6PPGwQ0E=; b=YrP9wCLbr5EMhmWK1VHMZJVzEdVn3Pj+SyAwpndA4KRZlaN+DUK9vpBH8ZFnGnPALn RHmSTl2n70nlxCA3LEmN3lFVsdUauSuyuj3SpBZOQ6vyDRcVO0EQTN+bwOJZEwoa2ypT UIyv35lNdeaO+TtEH6GnjQ4k0qRlN+Y/h8aCGLiw9WV+E/AWVidyUzfVnog7fwyWuUqG +dzPspK4/mB7ochoqZtOzw5mbZHGqPiqHzulHomiOPMCpEYrfEG5Cax6e2Rh/Ye/1L/k yGSXr2qEsTqtNMvIS0pFX55a6Zwoox9kNyrDAK//t0xBUuwP7YmSLZebNRYy4iPI5yye n8YQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=F0EOG1c75KUNC1ndUxG7rtUEkpJHENQQEk/6PPGwQ0E=; b=BUxHx3YtR7kwDlYX3DU3iQAJDm3NhvIsNnwc8MT6Z84LFvNjcenxwfwdzfTOIvrUrA dMEEA4ijDjAACB5QMGODhRVAuu7WtImJ2wwyUThpDBo6bdggjzXzX51+sazEVxz5OArS ueo0f+2we44oxCJtT1jjOOtmrfJjVjCFQbUc2yO7awFlfIL6P/9BnEOSbDkZPCy++QdR Wm8ELqcqdgcfKm8YoZGfBOJNB0Y+RJUWTNKM2kjVcpD2RWYf70DIwMjBAMgbifDAllXk 5SGIHtjeak9LL6CdQxPDjDyyAqMeoZsYidaTdNYfLwDmDN4Z2EX9VjEAPml87kaXG7z2 LIqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKxN07KzTS0BU1Ww2ISGFvUnXIUmWieq2LETzUrwEpsKqezVCTqVlVtMeccMHpC5g== X-Received: by 10.36.50.10 with SMTP id j10mr8097117ita.27.1465387842730; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 05:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:::ffff:192.168.254.2? (h253.95.91.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net. [75.91.95.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o201sm576262ioe.15.2016.06.08.05.10.40 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 08 Jun 2016 05:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <57580b41.d2a56b0a.201b6.1650@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: argoldman Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: What a load!! Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 08:10:37 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_E2851CD3-1604-44AD-B308-FC6B8F454C16_" --_E2851CD3-1604-44AD-B308-FC6B8F454C16_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Yeah, it was a mix. To someone new to homebuilding it would be a rotary tu= rn-off. Hopefully, anyone serious about building an airplane will recogniz= e the easily avoided pitfalls he had and do their homework first. I mean = really, you wait until the thing=E2=80=99s on the airplane to find out how = much this powerplant weighs? I spent months researching and thinking about= potential problems with rotaries before I even bought the engine. The R= acing Beat technical manual was the single most helpful piece of info I fou= nd. Sure wish I had known Lynn at the time though. I=E2=80=99m on the way to CO, driving the Slingshot, not flying, but lookin= g forward to flying the RV-8 I left there a couple of years ago. The extend= ed wings and bigger engine (20B) make it the perfect high altitude airport = plane. Salida is at 8000ft & most summer days the density alt is over 10,0= 00. Flys like the RV-4 at sea level =F0=9F=98=8A Tracy From: argoldman Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 1:58 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What a load!! I donnknow, I have lots of mixed feelings about this article. Yes it is an important article and reveals lots of problems, and yes we sho= uld welcome him into the community, =C2=A0however Where is his responsibility to learn all he could about his "strange engine= " with a "strange" gear box,a "strange" ignition system that may or may not= have been modified in a strange way. There are many resources available to learn prior to turning a wrench. As a= n example, It seems like he has a Ross gear box but is lubricating it as if= it were an RWS, thus the blown seal. Articles, such as this, although interesting to those of us with some knowl= edge of the engine, I believe are detrimental to those people who what to r= otarize. It really said-- "Don't go there, the damn things don't work and w= ill cost you a fortune. Hopefully the author will get the necessary education before going any furt= her. If he continues, as he is going, if the engine ever does produce power= , he has a great possibility of becoming a statistic which can only hurt ou= r effort to eliminate cylinders. Perhaps the article should be entitled," Learn before you leap". The time, IMNSHO to write an article of this type is after the engine has b= een successful and should be written as a retrospective of the journey. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Lehanover To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2016 11:06 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What a load!! Good or bad there is great value in airing all problems and cures. If we le= arn from the mistakes of others the cost goes down. Remove the plugs. Disab= le the ignition system. Clear the prop. Spin up oil pressure several times = so as to get all of the air out of the oil passages and hoses. Before you s= tart the engine the first time from new, and after a long winter or period = if no use.=20 =C2=A0 If the pump has drained down to dry and will not prime. Disconnect the pres= sure out hose form its destination and stick the loose end in the shop vac = with a shop rag as a seal. Apply a vacuum and crank the engine until you ma= ke a mess in the shop vac. Now spin up some oil into a waste can to be sure= pump is OK. Then reattach the hose and=C2=A0 spin up oil pressure. Piece o= f cake. =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover =C2=A0 In a message dated 6/7/2016 9:30:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, flyrotary@l= ancaironline.net writes: Hi Andrew=20 Excellent to hear of another rotary in Aus getting airborne, excellent work= ,=C2=A0 Bumma about the rebuild, but that's the learning curve, is worth the persev= erance . Well done As for the article, I reckon it was well done and a good collection of mist= akes that some of us has made Over the years, yes it can be taken both ways= , but wherever my rotary flies to there is always a fair amount of enthusia= sm associated around the engine. Cheers all On Wednesday, 8 June 2016, Andrew Martin wrot= e: I dont see a problem with the article, good on him for writing it, looks to= me that he is=C2=A0perservering. Much same article could be written by man= y Lyc/Cont builds. Takes a lot to put your mistakes into print for others t= o learn.=20 I think we should be inviting him to this forum and encouraging him on. If = I was close I'd go and say hello but I dont think he lives near Western Aus= tralia. I myself made my maiden=C2=A0flight on Sunday. Total time 4 minuites, learn= t that the plane handles exceponally well. Steam cleaned the inside of the = cowl at 500' above the wrong end of the runway,=C2=A0all due to an absolutl= y stupid mistake by the builder, so a rebuild is in order before next fligh= t. I might even tell more if I can bring myself to admitting my mistake in pri= nt and know that I wont be ridiculed. I really like my rotary engine, saved= my ass. Cheers Andrew Martin Lightwing SP4000 Renesis,rd1-c,ec2,em2. gt electric cs prop. YGEL=C2=A0Western Australia On Wednesday, 8 June 2016, William Jepson wro= te: True Todd, and I was rather harsh in my comment. I think that I am sensitiv= e as I want rotary conversions to flourish. That article isn't helpful to t= hat. Bill Jepson On Jun 7, 2016 4:07 PM, "Todd Bartrim" wrote: Oh, there's so many things that could be said about this article, but the m= ost important is the next to final line.. =C2=A0 "but I've had a lot more f= un and learned a great deal more than simply bolting on another engine."=C2= =A0=20 That pretty much fits with the rule that allows us to build for "entertainm= ent and educational purposes". While building my plane was fun, it wasn't hard with the very complete manu= al and plans that Vans supplies, but by far the most fun and rewarding aspe= ct of the project was the FWF where all design and development was the=C2= =A0responsibility=C2=A0of yours truly with the only guidance being provided= by the collective wisdom of the members of=C2=A0this list. =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't recognize his name so I assume he was never a=C2=A0mem= ber=C2=A0of this list, but obviously a=C2=A0disciple=C2=A0of Lamar. While i= t does shed a negative light on what we are doing, it likely wouldn't=C2=A0= dissuade=C2=A0a=C2=A0knowledgeable=C2=A0and=C2=A0competent=C2=A0builder, bu= t will make those with questionable abilities think twice about embarking o= n this journey. When we trivialize the challenges that we've overcome, we do possibly creat= e unrealistic expectations for others. Todd C-FSTB RV9 13Bturbo Todd Bartrim On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:13 PM, ARGOLDMAN wro= te: And the re builder =C2=A0 Rich =C2=A0 In a message dated 6/7/2016 12:16:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, flyrotary@= lancaironline.net writes: This single article does more to damage the reputation of the rotary engine= , as well as auto conversions in general, than all the positive articles co= mbined have done to promote the use.=C2=A0 http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/31_9/builder_spotlight/building_rotary_engi= ne_21069-1.html ...when in reality, it proves the incompetence of the builder. Pat --=20 Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag --_E2851CD3-1604-44AD-B308-FC6B8F454C16_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Yeah, it was a mix.=C2=A0 To someone= new to homebuilding it would be a rotary turn-off.=C2=A0 Hopefully, anyone= serious about building an airplane will recognize the easily avoided pitfa= lls he had and do their homework first.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I mean really, you wait= until the thing=E2=80=99s on the airplane to find out how much this powerp= lant weighs? =C2=A0I spent months researching and thinking about potential = problems with =C2=A0rotaries before I even bought the engine.=C2=A0=C2=A0 T= he Racing Beat technical manual was the single most helpful piece of info I= found.=C2=A0 Sure wish I had known Lynn at the time though.

 

I=E2=80=99m on the way = to CO, driving the Slingshot, not flying, but looking forward to flying the= RV-8 I left there a couple of years ago. The extended wings and bigger eng= ine (20B) make it the perfect high altitude airport plane.=C2=A0 Salida is = at 8000ft & most summer days the density alt is over 10,000.=C2=A0 Flys= like the RV-4 at sea level 😊

 

Tracy

 

From: argo= ldman
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 1:58 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraftSubject: [FlyRotary] Re: What a load!!

 

I donnknow, I have lots of m= ixed feelings about this article.

Yes it is an important article and= reveals lots of problems, and yes we should welcome him into the community= ,

 however

Where is his responsibility to learn all he c= ould about his "strange engine" with a "strange" gear b= ox,a "strange" ignition system that may or may not have been modi= fied in a strange way.

There are many resources available to learn p= rior to turning a wrench. As an example, It seems like he has a Ross gear b= ox but is lubricating it as if it were an RWS, thus the blown seal.

= Articles, such as this, although interesting to those of us with some knowl= edge of the engine, I believe are detrimental to those people who what to r= otarize. It really said-- "Don't go there, the damn things don't work = and will cost you a fortune.

Hopefully the author will get the neces= sary education before going any further. If he continues, as he is going, i= f the engine ever does produce power, he has a great possibility of becomin= g a statistic which can only hurt our effort to eliminate cylinders.
Perhaps the article should be entitled," Learn before you leap".=

The time, IMNSHO to write an article of this type is after the engi= ne has been successful and should be written as a retrospective of the jour= ney.

Rich

 = ;

 =

 

-----Original Message= -----
From: Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, Jun 7,= 2016 11:06 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What a load!!<= /p>

=

Good or bad there is great value in airing all proble= ms and cures. If we learn from the mistakes of others the cost goes down. R= emove the plugs. Disable the ignition system. Clear the prop. Spin up oil p= ressure several times so as to get all of the air out of the oil passages a= nd hoses. Before you start the engine the first time from new, and after a = long winter or period if no use.

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>= If the pump has drained down to dry and will not prime. Disconnect the pres= sure out hose form its destination and stick the loose end in the shop vac = with a shop rag as a seal. Apply a vacuum and crank the engine until you ma= ke a mess in the shop vac. Now spin up some oil into a waste can to be sure= pump is OK. Then reattach the hose and  spin up oil pressure. Piece o= f cake.

 

Lynn E. Hanover<= /span>

 

In a message dated 6/7/2016 9:30:45 P.M. = Eastern Daylight Time, flyro= tary@lancaironline.net writes:

Hi Andrew

Excellent = to hear of another rotary in Aus getting airborne, excellent work, 

Bumma about the rebuild= , but that's the learning curve, is worth the perseverance .

Well done

As for the article, I reckon it was well done = and a good collection of mistakes that some of us has made Over the years, = yes it can be taken both ways, but wherever my rotary flies to there is alw= ays a fair amount of enthusiasm associated around the engine.

 

=

Cheers all

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016, And= rew Martin <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:

I dont see a problem with the article= , good on him for writing it, looks to me that he is perservering. Muc= h same article could be written by many Lyc/Cont builds. Takes a lot to put= your mistakes into print for others to learn.

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

I think we should be inviting him to this forum and encouraging him = on. If I was close I'd go and say hello but I dont think he lives near West= ern Australia.

 = ;

I myself made my maiden&= nbsp;flight on Sunday. Total time 4 minuites, learnt that the plane handles= exceponally well. Steam cleaned the inside of the cowl at 500' above the w= rong end of the runway, all due to an absolutly stupid mistake by the = builder, so a rebuild is in order before next flight.

=

 

I might even tell more if I can bring myself to admittin= g my mistake in print and know that I wont be ridiculed. I really like my r= otary engine, saved my ass.

Cheers

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Andrew Martin

Lightwing SP4000

Renesis,rd1-c,ec2,em2. gt electric cs prop.

=

YGEL Western Australia

 

<= div>


On Wednesday, 8 June 2016, William Jepson <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

=

True Todd, and I was rather harsh in my comment.= I think that I am sensitive as I want rotary conversions to flourish. That= article isn't helpful to that.

Bill Jepson

On Jun 7, 2016 4:07 PM, "Todd Bartrim" <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Oh, there's so many things that= could be said about this article, but the most important is the next to fi= nal line..   "but I've had a lot more fun and learned a= great deal more than simply bolting on another engine." <= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>=

That pretty much fits wit= h the rule that allows us to build for "entertainment and educational = purposes".

While= building my plane was fun, it wasn't hard with the very complete manual an= d plans that Vans supplies, but by far the most fun and rewarding aspect of= the project was the FWF where all design and development was the resp= onsibility of yours truly with the only guidance being provided by the= collective wisdom of the members of this list.

<= /div>

   I don't recognize his name so = I assume he was never a member of this list, but obviously a = ;disciple of Lamar. While it does shed a negative light on what we are= doing, it likely wouldn't dissuade a knowledgeable and=  competent builder, but will make those with questionable abiliti= es think twice about embarking on this journey.

=

When we trivialize the challenges that we've ove= rcome, we do possibly create unrealistic expectations for others.

 

Todd

C-FSTB

= RV9 13Bturbo

<= br clear=3Dall>

T= odd Bartrim

 

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at= 2:13 PM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

And the re builder

 

Rich

 

In a message dated 6/7/= 2016 12:16:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net write= s:

This single article doe= s more to damage the reputation of the rotary engine, as well as auto conve= rsions in general, than all the positive articles combined have done to pro= mote the use. 

http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/31_9/builder_spotli= ght/building_rotary_engine_21069-1.html

 

 

...when in= reality, it proves the incompetence of the builder.

<= /div>

 

Pat

<= /div>

 

<= /div>



= --
Regards
Andrew Martin
Martin Ag

 

= --_E2851CD3-1604-44AD-B308-FC6B8F454C16_--