X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Neil Unger" Received: from nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.140] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.10) with ESMTPS id 8608501 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 18:52:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.189.140; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nschwcmgw08p ([61.9.190.168]) by nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20160424225201.ZXAB2114.nschwmtas02p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwcmgw08p> for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 22:52:01 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([121.216.162.198]) by nschwcmgw08p with BigPond Outbound id mNs01s00g4H8XPd01Ns04G; Sun, 24 Apr 2016 22:52:01 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=GYuVbHrL c=1 sm=1 a=ut5DgTjTqg0FM90Kcb6Ssg==:17 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=xsR79n95nWrqMbvoVHIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=YjEEZGG8Na4RMnFh:21 a=51YqWV3k-0na9U5n:21 a=LGPr1zY1jAlr5_yWw44A:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=ut5DgTjTqg0FM90Kcb6Ssg==:117 Message-ID: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Not the water jacktet, Corner seal buttons? Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 08:50:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01D19ECF.8C5785A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D19ECF.8C5785A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, Thanks for all the info even if it is from Dave=E2=80=99s grief. = The restrictor on the water outlet sound very feasible. 5/8 seems a = little too small, but you obviously see it work, would a 1 inch be too = large?? Neil. From: Lehanover=20 Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 12:37 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Not the water jacktet, Corner seal buttons? The water temperature tells us the average of many temperatures = collected inside the engine. Nothing specific and not the highest = temperature encountered by the coolant. The highest may be between the = spark plugs or below the lower plug. The highest oil temperature is = probably in the drainback in the center iron. That oil was cooling the = rotors. It mixes with oil in the sump to hide its true temperature. Oil = temperature reads directly from the throttle setting. As though the = throttle was linked to the gage.Conventional oils do not absorb heat nor = give it up readily. Racing synthetics do a much better job on that. I = use 40 weight RedLIne racing synthetic in the sump, and RedLine racing 2 = cycle oil in the fuel. The 40 weight sounds like too high a number but = it pours like lighter fluid and has very low drag. Lower oil temps help = lower the coolant temps. Keep in mind that the return line from the radiator to the water pump = should be bigger than the pressure=20 line(s) to the radiator. Because the water pump generates low pressure = in its inlet side. The reason for high pressure radiator caps is to = prevent boiling in front of the pump. Notice that the lower hose in your = car has a wire spring in it to keep it from being sucked flat closed = when you rev the engine. The boiling temperature of the coolant is a = function of the actual temperature, and the actual pressure.=20 Another option is to install a restrictor in the outlet hose leaving the = engine. I have been told by so many that this will not help, that I = quit mentioning restrictors. Mine is 5/8" and is a disc welded over the = outlet casting (Norice) where the top hose leaves the engine. It has not = been working I am told since 1980. So don't try that. (It works great) The corner seals with the rubber plugs are to get through the California = (CARB) tests for sales in California. They are fragile and lack a bit of stiffness. Use early corner seals = that are solid.=20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 In a message dated 4/24/2016 7:36:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: This isn't likely to be the problem you had but since the failure = happened with the same exact sequence, I thought I'd mention it. When = returning from a flyin in Texas, i had checked my coolant level and when = replacing the fill cap the little rubber shim I used to boost the cap = pressure got lodged under the check valve in the cap. I climbed to = 5000 ft. With all parameters looking good except coolant pressure which = looked low. Less than 30 seconds after my last instrument scan the high = coolant temp alarm went off and I glided under idle power to nearest = airport 8 miles away. =20 Engine had boiled almost all coolant out past the check valve. = Removed the shim under cap , Refilled coolant and all was well on way = back to Florida. =20 Sent from my iPad On Apr 23, 2016, at 12:54, David Leonard = wrote: Thanks for the Great review Lynn. As usual it should be saved in = the archives forever. =20 Thanks for all the comments everyone else too. I guess I should = give a little more background on what I am seeing. Keep in mind that I = am not figuring this out for the first time. My plane now has almost = 900 hrs on it. Formation team, coast to coast, Reno racer, blah = blah.... I am not talking about a small coolant leak somewhere either. = Rather, everything is working fine and I am flying along and for no = particular reason it suddenly shits all the coolant out the overflow = past the 20# cap, leading to a deadstick landing at my home field. = Afterward it still passed a leak test and will hold coolant pressure = indefinitely. A short test flight before the re-build showed exhaust = gasses gathering in the coolant system. It always does this to a small = degee, but now it is much much worse - making cross country travel = unsafe. Thinking the problem is an o-ring that finally got tired (last = rebuild was about 250 hrs prior), I set upon a quick rebuild to just = replace the o-rings and other rubber bits. To address Lynn's other = points: Bleed holes at the top of the engine - check Covering the exhaust holes in the center iron - check, I think. The = holes in the center housing are covered by the intake manifold. At the = first rebuild I put potter's clay in the (dead end) passages, but it has = long since disappeared. I don't think I ever had nozzles on my turbo = rotor housings. I will be more careful about this issue on my next = rebuild. Coolant - I am back to running 50/50 since I don't have overheating = issues, my coolant temp runs 140 to 170 and peaks at 190 in the worst of = conditions. But perhaps I would be better off with a higher water = percentage to help prevent nucleate boiling and/or carry more heat = away.. Silicone in the gasket groves. I used hylomar on my first rebuild = but it was a pain. I have been just using Vaseline to hold the o-rings = in place for the build. Seemed to work in the past but I Lynn says it, = I will use GE Silicone to create a lasting seal. Side seal clearance. I did not replace the side seals this last = rebuild and I could tell the clearance was not zero. It is definitely a = contributor to my oil blow-by problem. Note to self - Just replace the = seals when rebuilding. But all that stuff is getting more and more = expensive lately. =20 Lapping the Irons - I suspect that this is really my main problem = both in terms of coolant and oil blow by. Wish we could just buy new = ones. Once lapped I assume the Teflon o-rings become too fat and we = have to go back to the stock ones, or even custom? sealing the legs of the rotor housing to prevent the seeping of hot = oil.. this one bit me this time. I didn't do it and have seeping oil. = Good thing I am about to do another rebuild anyway.... Another thing I didnt do was install the rubber buttons in the = corner seals. Every time I tear down an engine they are long gone = (especially the ones from RWS) so I figured they are not particularly = needed. Since they are a pain, I skipped it. But now me thinks that = there was a reason that I had to tear down the engine, and a reason = Mazda included them in the first place. Lynn? Thanks for all the help everyone! David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:58 PM, Lehanover = wrote: There are a number of methods used to blow the coolant out of a = Mazda engine. The most popular is actually overheating the engine by not = removing every spec of air from the cooling system. Many bubbles form in = the top of the cooling jacket. They do not move unless the engine RPM = produces ample coolant velocity. As in a take off or taxi test. Then they form up un front of the = high mounted water pump and cavitate the pump to a standstill. Seconds = later there is no coolant to be found. Drill a hole in the top of the = center iron and install a bleed valve. Can be a Shrader valve with a = metal cap. This to leave open while filling with coolant so as to let = said air out of the very top of the engine. =20 Coolant means distilled water. 10% glycol. One teaspoonful of Dawn = dishwashing soap or Redline Water wetter per bottle instructions. A = bottle of Barsleak. Yes that brown water with the Rat poop in it. If it = is good enough for a $100,000.00 Cosworth V-8, then its good enough for = a Mazda. A 22 pound Stant pressure cap and a recovery bottle so you can = see where the fluids went.=20 Note that the rotor housings act as though they are made of hard = rubber. If one is only slightly warped it goes flat when the stack is = torqued up. No problem. If a iron is warped it is scrap. You can lap = facing surfaces of Irons against each other. This where minimal wear has = been observed. For heavy wear you can=20 have an automotive shop take off a few thousandths, then lap the = piece against its partner to remove most tooling marks. You can also do = a great job with a cleaning tank using kerosene and an air powered = random orbital sander. Glue on some 320 wet or dry paper and sand the = wear surface under a stream of Kerosene. The little circles are great for holding oil. Once clean check for = cracks. =20 And now into the weeds.......Many schemes have been tried in the = pollution control area. Most involve exhaust gasses being loose inside = the rotor housings where compressed air from an air pump was fed into = the exhaust stream through two steel nozzles that project into the = exhaust port. This air came from a port in the center iron that is = covered by the intake manifold. (In most every case). Those nozzles must = be plugged. The supply port in the center iron must be covered. The nozzles do = not fit tight and may leak fresh air into the exhaust stream and supply = a cracking and popping sound that confuses the tuner and Oxygen sensor. The center iron should match the coolant openings pattern of both = rotor housings. On assembly add a thin coating of GE 100% silicone tub = and tile sealant to the faces of the land areas that hold the "O" rings. = Works great to cure the tiny leaks and be sure to put it on the down = legs clear to the pan rail to keep oil from seeping out when hot. I use = the same GE silicone to seal the exhaust flanges to the engine. Stays = leak free until you pry off the exhaust system for service. If there is = no gasket, it cannot fail. I have used a copy of the RX-2 RX-3 cooling = system since 1980 Never an overheated engine. I can publish that drawing = if anyone wants it.=20 Set the side seal end clearance to zero, not .002" to 004" as seen = in some books. If both side seals and the gives you as close to = advertised compression as is possible. Quick starts even when hot. If = the side seals and the corner seal pop back up after being compressed, = then it is perfect. Good to 9,600 RPM. More on bullet proof Rotaries as soon as I remember it.......The = last racer is available and the spare (250 HP) engine is available.=20 Lynn E. Hanover =3D ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D19ECF.8C5785A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,   Thanks for all the info even if it is from = Dave=E2=80=99s=20 grief.  The restrictor on the water outlet sound very = feasible.  5/8=20 seems a little too small, but you obviously see it work, would a 1 inch = be too=20 large??  Neil.
 
From: Lehanover
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 12:37 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Not the water jacktet, Corner seal=20 buttons?
 
The water temperature tells us the average of many temperatures = collected=20 inside the engine. Nothing specific and not the highest temperature = encountered=20 by the coolant. The highest may be between the spark plugs or below the = lower=20 plug. The highest oil temperature is probably in the drainback in the = center=20 iron. That oil was cooling the rotors. It mixes with oil in the sump to = hide its=20 true temperature. Oil temperature reads directly from the throttle = setting. As=20 though the throttle was linked to the gage.Conventional oils do not = absorb heat=20 nor give it up readily. Racing synthetics do a much better job on that. = I use 40=20 weight RedLIne racing synthetic in the sump, and RedLine racing 2 cycle = oil in=20 the fuel. The 40 weight sounds like too high a number but it pours like = lighter=20 fluid and has very low drag.  Lower oil temps help lower the = coolant=20 temps.
 
Keep in mind that the return line from the radiator to the water = pump=20 should be bigger than the pressure
line(s) to the radiator. Because the water pump generates low = pressure in=20 its inlet side. The reason for high pressure radiator caps is to prevent = boiling=20 in front of the pump. Notice that the lower hose in your car has a wire = spring=20 in it to keep it from being sucked flat closed when you rev the engine. = The=20 boiling temperature of the coolant is a function of the actual = temperature, and=20 the actual pressure.
 
Another option is to install a restrictor in the outlet hose = leaving the=20 engine.  I have been told by so many that this will not help, that = I quit=20 mentioning restrictors. Mine is 5/8" and is a disc welded over the = outlet=20 casting (Norice) where the top hose leaves the engine. It has not been = working I=20 am told since 1980. So don't try that. (It works great)
 
The corner seals with the rubber plugs are to get through the = California=20 (CARB) tests for sales in California.
They are fragile and lack a bit of stiffness. Use early corner = seals that=20 are solid.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/24/2016 7:36:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
This isn't likely to be the problem you had but since the failure = happened with the same exact sequence, I thought I'd mention it.  = When=20 returning from a flyin in Texas, i had checked my coolant level and = when=20 replacing the fill cap the little rubber shim I used to boost the cap = pressure=20 got lodged under the check valve in the cap.   I climbed to = 5000 ft.=20 With all parameters looking good except coolant pressure which looked=20 low.  Less than 30 seconds after my last instrument scan the high = coolant=20 temp alarm went off and  I glided under idle power to nearest = airport 8=20 miles away. 
 
Engine had boiled almost all coolant out = past the=20 check valve.  Removed the shim under cap , Refilled coolant and = all was=20 well on way back to Florida.  

Sent from my = iPad

On Apr 23, 2016, at 12:54, David Leonard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

Thanks for the Great review Lynn.  As usual it = should be=20 saved in the archives forever.  =20
 
Thanks for all the comments everyone else too.  I guess I = should=20 give a little more background on what I am seeing.  Keep in = mind that I=20 am not figuring this out for the first time.  My plane now has = almost=20 900 hrs on it.  Formation team, coast to coast, Reno = racer,  blah=20 blah....
 
I am not talking about a small coolant leak somewhere = either. =20 Rather, everything is working fine and I am flying along and for no=20 particular reason it suddenly shits all the coolant out the overflow = past=20 the 20# cap, leading to a deadstick landing at my home field. =20 Afterward it still passed a leak test and will hold coolant pressure = indefinitely.  A short test flight before the re-build showed = exhaust=20 gasses gathering in the coolant system.  It always does this to = a small=20 degee, but now it is much much worse - making cross country travel=20 unsafe.
 
Thinking the problem is an o-ring that finally got tired (last = rebuild=20 was about 250 hrs prior), I set upon a quick rebuild to just replace = the=20 o-rings and other rubber bits.  To address Lynn's other = points:
 
Bleed holes at the top of the engine - check
 
Covering the exhaust holes in the center iron - check, I think. = The=20 holes in the center housing are covered by the intake = manifold.  At the=20 first rebuild I put potter's clay in the (dead end) passages, but it = has=20 long since disappeared.  I don't think I ever had nozzles on my = turbo=20 rotor housings.  I will be more careful about this issue on my = next=20 rebuild.
 
Coolant - I am back to running 50/50 since I don't have = overheating=20 issues, my coolant temp runs 140 to 170 and peaks at 190 in the = worst of=20 conditions.  But perhaps I would be better off with a higher = water=20 percentage to help prevent nucleate boiling and/or carry more heat=20 away..
 
Silicone in the gasket groves.  I used hylomar on my first = rebuild=20 but it was a pain.  I have been just using Vaseline to hold the = o-rings=20 in place for the build.  Seemed to work in the past but I Lynn = says it,=20 I will use GE Silicone to create a lasting seal.
 
Side seal clearance.  I did not replace the side seals = this last=20 rebuild and I could tell the clearance was not zero.  It is = definitely=20 a contributor to my oil blow-by problem.  Note to self - Just = replace=20 the seals when rebuilding.  But all that stuff is getting more = and more=20 expensive lately. 
 
Lapping the Irons - I suspect that this is really my main = problem both=20 in terms of coolant and oil blow by.  Wish we could just buy = new=20 ones.  Once lapped I assume the Teflon o-rings become too fat = and we=20 have to go back to the stock ones, or even custom?
 
sealing the legs of the rotor housing to prevent the seeping of = hot=20 oil..  this one bit me this time.  I didn't do it and have = seeping=20 oil.  Good thing I am about to do another rebuild = anyway....
 
Another thing I didnt do was install the rubber buttons in the = corner=20 seals.  Every time I tear down an engine they are long gone = (especially=20 the ones from RWS) so I figured they are not particularly = needed. =20 Since they are a pain, I skipped it.  But now me thinks that = there was=20 a reason that I had to tear down the engine, and a reason Mazda = included=20 them in the first place.  Lynn?
 
Thanks for all the help everyone!
 
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
 
 
 
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:58 PM, Lehanover = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
 
There are a number of methods used to blow the coolant out of = a Mazda=20 engine. The most popular is actually overheating the engine by not = removing every spec of air from the cooling system. Many bubbles = form in=20 the top of the cooling jacket. They do not move unless the engine = RPM=20 produces ample coolant velocity.
As in a take off or taxi test. Then they form up un front of = the high=20 mounted water pump and cavitate the pump to a standstill. Seconds = later=20 there is no coolant to be found. Drill a hole in the top of the = center=20 iron and install a bleed valve. Can be a Shrader valve with a = metal cap.=20 This to leave open while filling with coolant so as to let said = air out of=20 the very top of the engine. 
 
Coolant means distilled water. 10% glycol. One teaspoonful of = Dawn=20 dishwashing soap or Redline Water wetter per bottle instructions. = A bottle=20 of Barsleak. Yes that brown water with the Rat poop in it. If it = is good=20 enough for a $100,000.00 Cosworth V-8, then its good enough for a=20 Mazda.  A 22 pound Stant pressure cap and a recovery bottle = so you=20 can see where the fluids went.
 
Note that the rotor housings act as though they are made of = hard=20 rubber. If one is only slightly warped it goes flat when the stack = is=20 torqued up. No problem. If a iron is warped it is scrap. You can = lap=20 facing surfaces of Irons against each other. This where minimal = wear has=20 been observed. For heavy wear you can
have an automotive shop take off a few thousandths, then lap = the=20 piece against its partner to remove most tooling marks. You can = also do a=20 great job with a cleaning tank using kerosene and an air powered = random=20 orbital sander. Glue on some 320 wet or dry paper and sand the = wear=20 surface under a stream of Kerosene.
The little circles are great for holding oil. Once clean = check for=20 cracks.    
 
And now into the weeds.......Many schemes have been tried in = the=20 pollution control area. Most involve exhaust gasses being loose = inside the=20 rotor housings where compressed air from an air pump was fed into = the=20 exhaust stream through two steel nozzles that project into the = exhaust=20 port. This air came from a port in the center iron that is covered = by the=20 intake manifold. (In most every case). Those nozzles must be=20 plugged.
The supply port in the center iron must be covered. The = nozzles do=20 not fit tight and may leak fresh air into the exhaust stream and = supply a=20 cracking and popping sound that confuses the tuner and Oxygen=20 sensor.
 
The center iron should match the coolant openings pattern of = both=20 rotor housings. On assembly add a thin coating of GE 100% silicone = tub and=20 tile sealant to the faces of the land areas that hold the "O" = rings. Works=20 great to cure the tiny leaks and be sure to put it on the down = legs clear=20 to the pan rail to keep oil from seeping out when hot. I use the = same GE=20 silicone to seal the exhaust flanges to the engine. Stays leak = free until=20 you pry off the exhaust system for service. If there is no gasket, = it=20 cannot fail. I have used a copy of the RX-2 RX-3 cooling system = since 1980=20 Never an overheated engine. I can publish that drawing if anyone = wants it.=20
 
Set the side seal end clearance to zero, not .002" to 004" as = seen in=20 some books. If both side seals and the gives you as close to = advertised=20 compression as is possible. Quick starts even when hot. If the = side seals=20 and the corner seal pop back up after being compressed, then it is = perfect. Good to 9,600 RPM.
 
More on bullet proof Rotaries as soon as I remember = it.......The last=20 racer is available and the spare (250 HP) engine is available. =
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
=
 
=
=3D
= ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01D19ECF.8C5785A0--