From: "Tracy Crook" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Not the water jacktet, Corner seal buttons?
Message-Id: <43711A1D-CCBA-436E-A7D0-56D6D3760E7C@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2016 07:36:19 -0400
References: <list-8606725@logan.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-8606725@logan.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>


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This isn't likely to be the problem you had but since the failure happened w=
ith the same exact sequence, I thought I'd mention it.  When returning from a=
 flyin in Texas, i had checked my coolant level and when replacing the fill c=
ap the little rubber shim I used to boost the cap pressure got lodged under t=
he check valve in the cap.   I climbed to 5000 ft. With all parameters looki=
ng good except coolant pressure which looked low.  Less than 30 seconds afte=
r my last instrument scan the high coolant temp alarm went off and  I glided=
 under idle power to nearest airport 8 miles away. =20

Engine had boiled almost all coolant out past the check valve.  Removed the s=
him under cap , Refilled coolant and all was well on way back to Florida.  =20=


Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 23, 2016, at 12:54, David Leonard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro=
te:
>=20
> Thanks for the Great review Lynn.  As usual it should be saved in the arch=
ives forever. =20
>=20
> Thanks for all the comments everyone else too.  I guess I should give a li=
ttle more background on what I am seeing.  Keep in mind that I am not figuri=
ng this out for the first time.  My plane now has almost 900 hrs on it.  For=
mation team, coast to coast, Reno racer,  blah blah....
>=20
> I am not talking about a small coolant leak somewhere either.  Rather, eve=
rything is working fine and I am flying along and for no particular reason i=
t suddenly shits all the coolant out the overflow past the 20# cap, leading t=
o a deadstick landing at my home field.  Afterward it still passed a leak te=
st and will hold coolant pressure indefinitely.  A short test flight before t=
he re-build showed exhaust gasses gathering in the coolant system.  It alway=
s does this to a small degee, but now it is much much worse - making cross c=
ountry travel unsafe.
>=20
> Thinking the problem is an o-ring that finally got tired (last rebuild was=
 about 250 hrs prior), I set upon a quick rebuild to just replace the o-ring=
s and other rubber bits.  To address Lynn's other points:
>=20
> Bleed holes at the top of the engine - check
>=20
> Covering the exhaust holes in the center iron - check, I think. The holes i=
n the center housing are covered by the intake manifold.  At the first rebui=
ld I put potter's clay in the (dead end) passages, but it has long since dis=
appeared.  I don't think I ever had nozzles on my turbo rotor housings.  I w=
ill be more careful about this issue on my next rebuild.
>=20
> Coolant - I am back to running 50/50 since I don't have overheating issues=
, my coolant temp runs 140 to 170 and peaks at 190 in the worst of condition=
s.  But perhaps I would be better off with a higher water percentage to help=
 prevent nucleate boiling and/or carry more heat away..
>=20
> Silicone in the gasket groves.  I used hylomar on my first rebuild but it w=
as a pain.  I have been just using Vaseline to hold the o-rings in place for=
 the build.  Seemed to work in the past but I Lynn says it, I will use GE Si=
licone to create a lasting seal.
>=20
> Side seal clearance.  I did not replace the side seals this last rebuild a=
nd I could tell the clearance was not zero.  It is definitely a contributor t=
o my oil blow-by problem.  Note to self - Just replace the seals when rebuil=
ding.  But all that stuff is getting more and more expensive lately. =20
>=20
> Lapping the Irons - I suspect that this is really my main problem both in t=
erms of coolant and oil blow by.  Wish we could just buy new ones.  Once lap=
ped I assume the Teflon o-rings become too fat and we have to go back to the=
 stock ones, or even custom?
>=20
> sealing the legs of the rotor housing to prevent the seeping of hot oil.. =
 this one bit me this time.  I didn't do it and have seeping oil.  Good thin=
g I am about to do another rebuild anyway....
>=20
> Another thing I didnt do was install the rubber buttons in the corner seal=
s.  Every time I tear down an engine they are long gone (especially the ones=
 from RWS) so I figured they are not particularly needed.  Since they are a p=
ain, I skipped it.  But now me thinks that there was a reason that I had to t=
ear down the engine, and a reason Mazda included them in the first place.  L=
ynn?
>=20
> Thanks for all the help everyone!
>=20
> David Leonard
> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:58 PM, Lehanover <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
 wrote:
>> =20
>> There are a number of methods used to blow the coolant out of a Mazda eng=
ine. The most popular is actually overheating the engine by not removing eve=
ry spec of air from the cooling system. Many bubbles form in the top of the c=
ooling jacket. They do not move unless the engine RPM produces ample coolant=
 velocity.
>> As in a take off or taxi test. Then they form up un front of the high mou=
nted water pump and cavitate the pump to a standstill. Seconds later there i=
s no coolant to be found. Drill a hole in the top of the center iron and ins=
tall a bleed valve. Can be a Shrader valve with a metal cap. This to leave o=
pen while filling with coolant so as to let said air out of the very top of t=
he engine.=20
>> =20
>> Coolant means distilled water. 10% glycol. One teaspoonful of Dawn dishwa=
shing soap or Redline Water wetter per bottle instructions. A bottle of Bars=
leak. Yes that brown water with the Rat poop in it. If it is good enough for=
 a $100,000.00 Cosworth V-8, then its good enough for a Mazda.  A 22 pound S=
tant pressure cap and a recovery bottle so you can see where the fluids went=
.
>> =20
>> Note that the rotor housings act as though they are made of hard rubber. I=
f one is only slightly warped it goes flat when the stack is torqued up. No p=
roblem. If a iron is warped it is scrap. You can lap facing surfaces of Iron=
s against each other. This where minimal wear has been observed. For heavy w=
ear you can
>> have an automotive shop take off a few thousandths, then lap the piece ag=
ainst its partner to remove most tooling marks. You can also do a great job w=
ith a cleaning tank using kerosene and an air powered random orbital sander.=
 Glue on some 320 wet or dry paper and sand the wear surface under a stream o=
f Kerosene.
>> The little circles are great for holding oil. Once clean check for cracks=
.    =20
>> =20
>> And now into the weeds.......Many schemes have been tried in the pollutio=
n control area. Most involve exhaust gasses being loose inside the rotor hou=
sings where compressed air from an air pump was fed into the exhaust stream t=
hrough two steel nozzles that project into the exhaust port. This air came f=
rom a port in the center iron that is covered by the intake manifold. (In mo=
st every case). Those nozzles must be plugged.
>> The supply port in the center iron must be covered. The nozzles do not fi=
t tight and may leak fresh air into the exhaust stream and supply a cracking=
 and popping sound that confuses the tuner and Oxygen sensor.
>> =20
>> The center iron should match the coolant openings pattern of both rotor h=
ousings. On assembly add a thin coating of GE 100% silicone tub and tile sea=
lant to the faces of the land areas that hold the "O" rings. Works great to c=
ure the tiny leaks and be sure to put it on the down legs clear to the pan r=
ail to keep oil from seeping out when hot. I use the same GE silicone to sea=
l the exhaust flanges to the engine. Stays leak free until you pry off the e=
xhaust system for service. If there is no gasket, it cannot fail. I have use=
d a copy of the RX-2 RX-3 cooling system since 1980 Never an overheated engi=
ne. I can publish that drawing if anyone wants it.
>> =20
>> Set the side seal end clearance to zero, not .002" to 004" as seen in som=
e books. If both side seals and the gives you as close to advertised compres=
sion as is possible. Quick starts even when hot. If the side seals and the c=
orner seal pop back up after being compressed, then it is perfect. Good to 9=
,600 RPM.
>> =20
>> More on bullet proof Rotaries as soon as I remember it.......The last rac=
er is available and the spare (250 HP) engine is available.
>> =20
>> Lynn E. Hanover

--Apple-Mail-42AA16D1-9873-4CB6-8905-EF5B543F79C5
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>This isn't likely to be the problem yo=
u had but since the failure happened with the same exact sequence, I thought=
 I'd mention it. &nbsp;When returning from a flyin in Texas, i had checked m=
y coolant level and when replacing the fill cap the little rubber shim I use=
d to boost the cap pressure got lodged under the check valve in the cap. &nb=
sp; I climbed to 5000 ft. With all parameters looking good except coolant pr=
essure which looked low. &nbsp;Less than 30 seconds after my last instrument=
 scan the high coolant temp alarm went off and &nbsp;I glided under idle pow=
er to nearest airport 8 miles away. &nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Engine had boiled almost all coo=
lant out past the check valve. &nbsp;Removed the shim under cap , Refilled c=
oolant and all was well on way back to Florida. &nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Sent fro=
m my iPad</div><div><br>On Apr 23, 2016, at 12:54, David Leonard &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks fo=
r the Great review Lynn.&nbsp; As usual it should be saved in the archives f=
orever. &nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Thanks for all the comments everyone else t=
oo.&nbsp; I guess I should give a little more background on what I am seeing=
.&nbsp; Keep in mind that I am not figuring this out for the first time.&nbs=
p; My plane now has almost 900 hrs on it.&nbsp; Formation team, coast to coa=
st, Reno racer, &nbsp;blah blah....</div><div><br></div><div>I am not talkin=
g about a small coolant leak somewhere either.&nbsp; Rather, everything is w=
orking fine and I am flying along and for no particular reason it suddenly s=
hits all the coolant out the overflow past the 20# cap, leading to a deadsti=
ck landing at my home field.&nbsp; Afterward it still passed a leak test and=
 will hold coolant pressure indefinitely.&nbsp; A short test flight before t=
he re-build showed exhaust gasses gathering in the coolant system.&nbsp; It a=
lways does this to a small degee, but now it is much much worse - making cro=
ss country travel unsafe.</div><div><br></div><div>Thinking the problem is a=
n o-ring that finally got tired (last rebuild was about 250 hrs prior), I se=
t upon a quick rebuild to just replace the o-rings and other rubber bits.&nb=
sp; To address Lynn's other points:</div><div><br></div><div>Bleed holes at t=
he top of the engine - check</div><div><br></div><div>Covering the exhaust h=
oles in the center iron - check, I think. The holes in the center housing ar=
e covered by the intake manifold.&nbsp; At the first rebuild I put potter's c=
lay in the (dead end) passages, but it has long since disappeared.&nbsp; I d=
on't think I ever had nozzles on my turbo rotor housings.&nbsp; I will be mo=
re careful about this issue on my next rebuild.</div><div><br></div><div>Coo=
lant - I am back to running 50/50 since I don't have overheating issues, my c=
oolant temp runs 140 to 170 and peaks at 190 in the worst of conditions.&nbs=
p; But perhaps I would be better off with a higher water percentage to help p=
revent nucleate boiling and/or carry more heat away..</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Silicone in the gasket groves.&nbsp; I used hylomar on my first rebuild b=
ut it was a pain.&nbsp; I have been just using Vaseline to hold the o-rings i=
n place for the build.&nbsp; Seemed to work in the past but I Lynn says it, I=
 will use GE Silicone to create a lasting seal.</div><div><br></div><div>Sid=
e seal clearance.&nbsp; I did not replace the side seals this last rebuild a=
nd I could tell the clearance was not zero.&nbsp; It is definitely a contrib=
utor to my oil blow-by problem.&nbsp; Note to self - Just replace the seals w=
hen rebuilding.&nbsp; But all that stuff is getting more and more expensive l=
ately. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Lapping the Irons - I suspect that th=
is is really my main problem both in terms of coolant and oil blow by.&nbsp;=
 Wish we could just buy new ones.&nbsp; Once lapped I assume the Teflon o-ri=
ngs become too fat and we have to go back to the stock ones, or even custom?=
</div><div><br></div><div>sealing the legs of the rotor housing to prevent t=
he seeping of hot oil.. &nbsp;this one bit me this time.&nbsp; I didn't do i=
t and have seeping oil.&nbsp; Good thing I am about to do another rebuild an=
yway....</div><div><br></div><div>Another thing I didnt do was install the r=
ubber buttons in the corner seals.&nbsp; Every time I tear down an engine th=
ey are long gone (especially the ones from RWS) so I figured they are not pa=
rticularly needed.&nbsp; Since they are a pain, I skipped it.&nbsp; But now m=
e thinks that there was a reason that I had to tear down the engine, and a r=
eason Mazda included them in the first place.&nbsp; Lynn?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Thanks for all the help everyone!</div><div><br></div><div>David Leon=
ard</div><div>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:5=
8 PM, Lehanover <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:flyrotary@lancaironl=
ine.net" target=3D"_blank">flyrotary@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>


<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:Arial;COLOR:#000000;FONT-SIZE:10pt"><font color=3D=
"#000000" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>There are a number of methods used to blow the coolant out of a Mazda=20=

engine. The most popular is actually overheating the engine by not removing=20=

every spec of air from the cooling system. Many bubbles form in the top of t=
he=20
cooling jacket. They do not move unless the engine RPM produces ample coolan=
t=20
velocity.</div>
<div>As in a take off or taxi test. Then they form up un front of the high=20=

mounted water pump and cavitate the pump to a standstill. Seconds later ther=
e is=20
no coolant to be found. Drill a hole in the top of the center iron and insta=
ll a=20
bleed valve. Can be a Shrader valve with a metal cap. This to leave open whi=
le=20
filling with coolant so as to let said air out of the very top of the=20
engine.&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Coolant means distilled water. 10% glycol. One teaspoonful of Dawn=20
dishwashing soap or Redline Water wetter per bottle instructions. A bottle o=
f=20
Barsleak. Yes that brown water with the Rat poop in it. If it is good enough=
 for=20
a $100,000.00 Cosworth V-8, then its good enough for a Mazda.&nbsp; A 22 pou=
nd=20
Stant pressure cap and a recovery bottle so you can see where the fluids wen=
t.=20
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Note that the rotor housings act as though they are made of hard rubber=
. If=20
one is only slightly warped it goes flat when the stack is torqued up. No=20=

problem. If a iron is warped it is scrap. You can lap facing surfaces of Iro=
ns=20
against each other. This where minimal wear has been observed. For=20
heavy&nbsp;wear you can </div>
<div>have an automotive shop take off a few thousandths, then lap the piece=20=

against its partner to remove most tooling marks. You can also do a great jo=
b=20
with a cleaning tank using kerosene and an air powered&nbsp;random orbital=20=

sander. Glue on some 320 wet or dry paper and sand the wear surface under a=20=

stream of Kerosene.</div>
<div>The little circles are great for holding oil. Once clean check for crac=
ks.=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>And now into the weeds.......Many schemes have been tried in the pollut=
ion=20
control area. Most involve exhaust gasses being loose inside the rotor housi=
ngs=20
where compressed air from an air pump was fed into the exhaust stream throug=
h=20
two steel nozzles that project into the exhaust port. This air came from a p=
ort=20
in the center iron that is covered by the intake manifold. (In most every ca=
se).=20
Those nozzles must be plugged.</div>
<div>The supply port in the center iron must be covered. The nozzles do not f=
it=20
tight and may leak fresh air into the exhaust stream and supply a cracking a=
nd=20
popping sound that confuses the tuner and Oxygen sensor.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The center iron should match the coolant openings pattern of both rotor=
=20
housings. On assembly add a thin coating of GE 100% silicone tub and tile=20=

sealant to the faces of the land areas that hold the "O" rings. Works great t=
o=20
cure the tiny leaks and be sure to put it on the down legs clear to the pan r=
ail=20
to keep oil from seeping&nbsp;out when hot. I use the same GE silicone to se=
al=20
the exhaust flanges to the engine. Stays leak free until you pry off the exh=
aust=20
system for service. If there is no gasket, it cannot fail. I have used a cop=
y of=20
the RX-2 RX-3 cooling system since 1980 Never an overheated engine. I can=20=

publish that drawing if anyone wants it. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Set the side seal end clearance to zero, not .002" to 004" as seen in s=
ome=20
books. If both side seals and&nbsp;the gives you as close to advertised=20
compression as is possible. Quick starts even when hot. If the side seals an=
d=20
the corner seal pop back up after being compressed, then it is perfect. Good=
 to=20
9,600 RPM.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>More on bullet proof Rotaries as soon as I remember it.......The last r=
acer=20
is available and the spare (250 HP) engine is available. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Lynn E. Hanover</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></font></div></blockquote></div></div></div></d=
iv>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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