X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m018e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.17] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.9) with ESMTPS id 8568761 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 03:00:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.17; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-aag01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-aag01.mx.aol.com [172.26.126.79]) by omr-m018e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 83F1C3800086 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 02:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mua005b.mail.aol.com (core-mua005.mail.aol.com [172.29.237.145]) by mtaomg-aag01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 452BF38000082 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 02:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: <472a86.5003678f.443df6ea@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 02:59:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Intake Styles and Data To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_472a86.5003678f.443df6ea_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.8 sub 2019 X-Originating-IP: [65.32.224.140] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1460444395; bh=L8f0e3smdc7jYbp4amDVp0UTTs2Yw6LgPMxBBJ21GGo=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=R2Rb7o3BvWJKO5sTow2fSGxkjsFgfwOiuKbzoSyAAATJB4B8X2WvjH6Lk4CtyQApe KmAPtXpnt5wGYwWNAjJ1ccmQZ5WSBUhnekryq+Xatt3+nGk1J8R01ApsQWM9k53IlS WJi/HaFVI+VwuDNWy+sBj9t2VqMlm4B3YW2+hdY0= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1a7e4f570c9ceb5a85 --part1_472a86.5003678f.443df6ea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Everything that Racing Beat says is correct. However, the header is being= =20 sold for a street driven vehicle and it features all of the hookups for = =20 pollution controls and then dump into stock reactors. And it can never be= used =20 on the street in California, (Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge) So the header is=20 short. Probably better for higher RPM than aircraft would use. (5,000 to= 6,500)=20 RPM. The stock Renesis goes to 9,000 RPM. Also the center exhaust port is= =20 shared between housings and is a flow and tuning disaster. Also the cente= r=20 iron appears to run hotter as it flows about twice as much gas as the end= =20 ports.=20 =20 So, if the runners were a bit smaller (higher velocity) and a bit longer= =20 for the lower aircraft RPM and ended with a great flowing muffler could yo= u=20 beat 4 HP? I think so.=20 Or, Siamese the center pipe and collect both sides from each housing and= =20 run the two collected pipes out to the tuned length and collect them at th= e =20 muffler. Lighter and probably as good power wise. The Renesis has no=20 overlap in order to pass the California Air Resources Board idea of exhau= st=20 gasses. Mostly kittens, daises, pure water and oxygen may be expelled but= not=20 much of anything else. The rotarie's unburned hydrocarbons are the proble= m.=20 Low speed and back pressure in the exhaust add up to unburned fuel gettin= g=20 out the tail pipe in the earlier engines. Note the great lengths gone to= =20 for getting a number of ideal intake lengths in the stock intake manifold= .=20 Note also that those runners are all very small diameter. (Higher velocit= y). =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 In a message dated 4/11/2016 6:03:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Len, I bow to your superior knowledge & experience.=20 But when the Renesis first came on the market, one of the big rotary spee= d=20 shops did everything they could with custom exhaust systems (headers) and= =20 IIRC, the most HP gain they got over the stock Renesis exhaust manifold= was=20 7 HP. (The only custom exhaust header I see for the Renesis has a claimed= =20 increase of 4 HP. http://www.racingbeat.com/RX8/Exhaust-Headers/16133.html ) Their conclusion was that with the Renesis' zero intake/exhaust overlap,= =20 all that mattered on the exhaust side was keeping back pressure to a =20 minimum. They concluded that the only 'tuning' available on the Renesis wa= s on the=20 intake side, since the exhaust couldn't contribute to increasing intake = =20 flow like it does on 'normal' engines with overlap. Do you disagree with= this?=20 (Remember, I'm only talking about the Renesis, with zero overlap.) Charlie On 4/11/2016 2:38 PM, Lehanover wrote: For intake lengths, the ideal is the enemy of the good. There is only one= =20 perfect length and diameter for each full throttle RPM. So a very large = =20 number of lengths and diameters work very well for AC use. Tracy's Race = =20 winning engine had rather short compact tube lengths and outran everybody.= My=20 racer has 170 HP at 6,500 RPM and 250 HP at 9,600 RPM from a 12A engine = with=20 2292 CCs. This with a very large bridge port. The 13Bs you are building = are=20 bigger with 2,606CCs.=20 =20 The engines tune like a 2 cycle dirt bike. The exhaust system makes a far= =20 bigger difference than does the intake design. My Drummond built race =20 engines us a stock intake manifold gasket. The intake runners are polished= but=20 NOT enlarged. You want the highest possible intake flow velocity at every= =20 RPM. The intake manifold to mount a Weber 48 IDF has a plenum below each= =20 throat so the actual runner length is very short. This in turn tunes a bi= t=20 better at stupid high RPM but works well enough to deliver good performan= ce=20 above 6,000 RPM. You would not have to add much length beyond the stock= lower=20 manifold to be about perfect for aircraft use. The HP is in the exhaust= =20 system. The side port engines have fewer degrees of overlap than does a= Pport=20 (Massive overlap). Renesis has no overlap at all. Smoother the idle for= =20 less the overlap. =20 Lynn E. Hanover Racing rotaries since 1980. =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 4/11/2016 12:38:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 _flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) write= s: =20 Actually on paper I=E2=80=99m still the CEO of the company but all the da= y to day=20 operations are handled by Laura since my retirement. She has been a grea= t=20 business partner.=20 Tracy=20 Sent from _Mail_ (https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986) for= =20 Windows 10=20 =20 From: _ARGOLDMAN_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net)=20 Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:29 AM To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net)=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Intake Styles and Data =20 =20 =20 Thanks for the link. =20 =20 Actually, The company is owned by Laura, Tracy's EX. (reminds me of the= =20 license plate of a Mercedes, in my area," WAS HIS" =20 =20 Although they don't have aviation parts any more, they still stock a=20 complete line of Tracy's seals, rebuild kits etc. =20 =20 Rich =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 4/10/2016 9:28:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,=20 _flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) write= s: Sorry for lack of detailed info; I was away from home & pecking at my=20 phone to reply. Wayback machine: https://archive.org/web/ Tracy's old website was: http://www.rotaryaviation.com/=20 which no longer has aviation info on it (currently only car performance= =20 parts under different ownership).=20 =3D --part1_472a86.5003678f.443df6ea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Everything that Racing Beat says is correct. However, the header is= being=20 sold for a street driven vehicle and it features all of the hookups for=20 pollution controls and then dump into stock reactors. And it can never be= used=20 on the street in California, (Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge) So the header is sho= rt.=20 Probably better for higher RPM than aircraft would use. (5,000 to 6,500)= RPM.=20 The stock Renesis goes to 9,000 RPM. Also the center exhaust port is share= d=20 between housings and is a flow and tuning disaster. Also the center iron= appears=20 to run hotter as it flows about twice as much gas as the end ports.
 
So, if the runners were a bit smaller (higher velocity) and a bit lon= ger=20 for the lower aircraft RPM and ended with a great flowing muffler could yo= u beat=20 4 HP?     I think so.
Or, Siamese  the center pipe and collect both sides from each ho= using=20 and run the two collected pipes out to the tuned length and collect them= at the=20 muffler. Lighter and probably as good power wise. The Renesis has no overl= ap in=20 order to pass the California Air Resources Board idea of exhaust gasses.= Mostly=20 kittens, daises, pure water and oxygen may be expelled but not much= of=20 anything else. The rotarie's unburned hydrocarbons are the problem. Low sp= eed=20 and back pressure in the exhaust add up to unburned fuel getting out the= tail=20 pipe in the earlier engines.  Note the great lengths gone to for gett= ing a=20 number of ideal intake lengths in the stock intake manifold. Note also tha= t=20 those runners are all very small diameter. (Higher velocity).
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 4/11/2016 6:03:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
Len,

I bow to your superior knowledg= e &=20 experience.

But when the Renesis first came on the market, one= of the=20 big rotary speed shops did everything they could with custom exhaust sys= tems=20 (headers) and IIRC, the most HP gain they got over the stock Renesis exh= aust=20 manifold was 7 HP. (The only custom exhaust header I see for the Renesis= has a=20 claimed increase of 4 HP.
http:/= /www.racingbeat.com/RX8/Exhaust-Headers/16133.html =20 )

Their conclusion was that with the Renesis' zero intake/exhaust= =20 overlap, all that mattered on the exhaust side was keeping back pressure= to a=20 minimum. They concluded that the only 'tuning' available on the Renesis= was on=20 the intake side, since the exhaust couldn't contribute to increasing int= ake=20 flow like it does on 'normal' engines with overlap. Do you disagree with= this?=20 (Remember, I'm only talking about the Renesis, with zero=20 overlap.)

Charlie

On 4/11/2016 2:38 PM, Lehanover=20 wrote:
For intake lengths, the ideal is the enemy of the good. There is= only=20 one perfect length and diameter for each full throttle RPM. So a very= large=20 number of lengths and diameters work very well for AC use. Tracy's Rac= e=20 winning engine had rather short compact tube lengths and outran everyb= ody.=20 My racer has 170 HP at 6,500 RPM and 250 HP at 9,600 RPM from a 12A en= gine=20 with 2292 CCs. This with a very large bridge port. The 13Bs you are bu= ilding=20 are bigger with 2,606CCs.
 
The engines tune like a 2 cycle dirt bike. The exhaust system mak= es a=20 far bigger difference than does the intake design. My Drummond built= race=20 engines us a stock intake manifold gasket. The intake runners are poli= shed=20 but NOT enlarged. You want the highest possible intake flow velocity= at=20 every RPM. The intake manifold to mount a Weber 48 IDF has a plenum be= low=20 each throat so the actual runner length is very short. This in tu= rn=20 tunes a bit better at stupid high RPM but works well enough to deliver= good=20 performance above 6,000 RPM. You would not have to add much lengt= h=20 beyond the stock lower manifold to be about perfect for aircraft use.= The HP=20 is in the exhaust system. The side port engines have fewer degrees of= =20 overlap than does a Pport (Massive overlap). Renesis has no overlap at= all.=20 Smoother the idle for less the overlap.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
Racing rotaries since 1980.     
 
In a message dated 4/11/2016 12:38:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,= flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t=20 writes:

Actually on paper I=E2=80=99m still the CEO of= the company but=20 all the day to day operations are handled by Laura since my=20 retirement.  She has been a great business partner.

 

Tracy

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

<= O:P> 

From: ARGOLDMAN
Sent: Monday, April= 11,=20 2016 8:29 AM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Intake Sty= les=20 and Data

<= O:P> 

 

 

 

Thanks=20 for the link.

 

Actually,=20 The company is owned by Laura, Tracy's EX.  (reminds me of the= =20 license plate of a Mercedes, in my area," WAS=20 HIS"

 

Although=20 they don't have aviation parts any more, they still stock a complete= line=20 of Tracy's seals, rebuild kits etc.

 

Rich

 

In=20 a message dated 4/10/2016 9:28:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.= net=20 writes:

Sorry=20 for lack of detailed info; I was away from home & pecking at my= phone=20 to reply.

Wayback machine:
https://archive.org/web/

Tracy's= old=20 website was:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/
whic= h no=20 longer has aviation info on it (currently only car performance parts= under=20 different ownership).

 

=3D

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