Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #61754
From: Al Wick <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 07:49:54 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 
Jeff says:
<Al, there is an air bleed path from my engine block to expansion tank
 
Excellent. This is the most important design feature for water cooling. Air flowing past block has dramatic negative effect on cooling. With your design, if you develop compression leak into cooling, or change coolant, your sys will minimize the negative effect of air.
 
<but there is NOT an air bleed path out of my radiator.
 
A nifty way to verify rad doesn’t have too much air trapped is to spray water on rad core prior to engine start. You can watch water evaporate as engine warms up. Can’t see it? Then turn on video record and lay your phone under rad. Idle engine. I’m able to place my hand on rad core and feel the heat at various locations. Lot of value to these simple ground tests. Removes guessing.
 
Unlikely you could have a plumbing oversight such that you’d lose significant rad cooling. But it’s so easy to “measure” as described above, why not. I also really like Bobby’s use of sensors to measure these features.
 
-al wick
 
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight
 

Al, there is an air bleed path from my engine block to expansion tank but there is NOT an air bleed path out of my radiator.  The radiator lays flat under the engine with inlet and outlet couplings closest to the firewall using the stock water pump 1.5” hose connections.  So any air in the block should have escaped but Bobby may be right about air trapped in the radiator – I hope so.  I must say I never saw such a low pressure associated to such a high temperature with my previous radiator that was a vertical mount.

Jeff

 

From:

Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight

Date:

Wed, 6 May 2015 11:36:18 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Message Header

Undecoded Message

Al,

 “Sorry to say, the pressure you see has no significant effect on cooling efficiency (heat transfer). The next time you fly, since you’ve removed most of that air, you will still see 210F. Just like before”.

If the air was trapped at the top of the heat exchanger I would expect improved temperatures. Could be wrong.

 Bobby Hughes

  From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 11:15 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight

 Hi Jeff. I’ve done lot’s of experimenting with cooling sys. Tough to explain all this, but I’ll give it a try:

Pretty clear you saw 6 psi only because you took off with 3+ cups of air in the system. If you’d taken off with 2 cups of air, then pressure would have been 9 psi. 1 cup, 14 psi. No air in system, then you would have seen rated cap pressure (16 psi in your case).

Sorry to say, the pressure you see has no significant effect on cooling efficiency (heat transfer). The next time you fly, since you’ve removed most of that air, you will still see 210F. Just like before. There’s one huge exception to that statement, that’s if you have air in sys that can’t move to a high point out of the flow. In that case air in sys has huge negative effect. Causes local boiling when it passes hot areas and inflates cooling temp.

You don’t have to fly to prove these concepts. Ground running at idle is all that’s needed. Let’s assume all air is removed. Then letting engine warm up to 180 F will result in rapid pressure rise to 16 psi (rated cap pressure). Fluid will exit system. With 2 cups of air in sys, that same 180F will yield slow rise in pressure to only 9 psi. No fluid will leave sys.

A good cooling design pretends air is stuck in block, so you add a path for that air to rise out of the block coolant flow. This is called a dynamic bleed. Air is automatically removed from engine coolant flow. Super low risk way to fly as you no longer care if air is in system. It’s can’t affect cooling.

It’s a bit higher risk to fly without dynamic air bleed, you just make darn sure you purge all air from block sys prior to flight. Applying vacuum to rad cap is great way to remove air.

One of the ironies about cooling design is that air that resides above engine flow is a safety asset. For example, your cap is highest point in sys and you have 2 cups of air under cap. Big safety advantage simply because your pressure gage is then a great predictor of how well your sys is doing. A leak will be detected long before overheating. A bunch of other assets to this design.

Conversely, air in engine flow has overwhelming negative affect. Temps soar and risks boil over.

Clear as mud eh?

Fwiw

-al wick

 

 

From: Jeff Whaley
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 8:04 AM
To: 'David Leonard'
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight

 

Dave, I’m curious if you have provisions for over-cooling? Thermostat, cowl flap.  Do you fly at temperatures below freezing??

Jeff

 

From: David Leonard [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight

 

I went from 22"x24"x2" to 22x24x3.  But I dont think I really needed to, the first one probably would have worked.  I think the important thing was giving it plenty of clean cool air.  Custom from C&R racing at a very reasonable price.  I even have the old one for sale if that size works for you.

 

Dave Leonard

 

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 9:57 PM, steve Izett <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave

 

Did you change your radiator? What is its area/volume now?

 

Cheers

 

Steve Izett

 

 

On 6 May 2015, at 9:31 am, David Leonard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

 

I agree with Bobby, this may (hopefully) be the cause, but if so it just means that you didn't design in an adequate way to fill the coolant without trapping air.  You would hate to have to do a coolant-prep flight every time you wanted to drain and refill the coolant. (but not the end of the world).

 

I originally designed my system like Ed's.  Minimal drag (just the 2 stock RV-6 inlets) but cooling was like you and Ed describe...  OK, but you always have to keep and eye on it and often reduce power or AOA in order to keep coolant temps in check.  Then I made a major change to provide TONS of air to an adequately sized radiator.  Since,  I never even think about cooling.  Yes, I do probably burn a little more fuel but it is well worth it to never worry about cooling again.  Its not rocket science.  Adequate air to an adequate radiator equals adequate cooling.  Change adequate to plenty in that sentence and now your are rocking!

 

Dave Leonard

 

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Jeff,

 

Congratulations on getting back in the air. That ½ quart of coolant may have been trapped air that purged during flight.

 

Bobby Hughes

N416AS-

RV10  223 hrs

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 7:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Return to Flight

 

Yesterday 3-May, my bird got airborne once again on its maiden flight after 2+ years rebuilding.  I had a friend test-pilot fly it while I was flight engineer watching the gauges.  Flight controls and rigging were reported to be good and the engine performed flawlessly.  The oil temperature was stable around 160F (Mazda oil cooler in series with a Fluidyne) but again the water temperature was high reaching 210F by circuit height so we backed off the throttle, did a touch and go with a 500’ circuit and parked it.  One unusual result was the cooling system pressure was only at 5-6 psi; with the high temperature it should have been 15-16 psi.  Removed the cowlings and found no leaks of either oil or glycol.  I checked the coolant level and it was down, requiring 1/2 quart to top it up. I also looked at my pinched duct and think it needs more pinching, so am already starting to modify that – hope to get another test flight in before the weekend.

 

Jeff

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This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.
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