X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with SMTP id 6299061 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 30 May 2013 19:08:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1369955288; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=Hm0+YtiTGrnF++vdI7MLHDRVyU9cy6p+FtYaFRHKLsn+nsLZNyBPzstuBa+ERYUIf U+ub6geCLUvVTiAvk+q724IrhX7PWeu9QDkGsKv9PpGgkG1za9dScp89K2v96Abi9d EVU3UiOpAPoV0Rf59C8A6BpnMIOzXYaFdDN1O9N4= Received: from Penny (50-39-161-147.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.161.147]) by smtpout03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJ4RY7DA6N7GUA for (sender ); Thu, 30 May 2013 16:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <903F2FF93AA044FFAC5CC057300A6647@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:07:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_057E_01CE5D4F.BED0D640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 31784 X-ContentStamp: 79:39:3243428981 X-MAIL-INFO:58f9a558a539cdb83958318558357ceda129bd8db9b165498d2941fc41b8a8653c41ed38dcc9dcc959f8c9c15988c1594d3c31e135b94d7c582835cdbc18a9a9d15cddad25dca8c9e998dcc191911998b55d69f1c5f8c50d55287cc8ac254dcc895d19c5d5e51155a181a1b1e58db5488c78791d012d0cd50c2c88297d4c65458de1f9f9a53c391df8994975f5fc7841f9ed5c3599b9e90595ad5c1c75a9d1b53c0cb9112848add1a85971c1e841d89871c1e84d5d5d59001559ac X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkNrPSuV3i8cschJc1Xyl0E8YYLgyskWB1g== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.33|smtpout03.vgs.untd.com|smtpout03.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_057E_01CE5D4F.BED0D640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. Lots of good design features.=20 When analyzing designs like this, it's important for me to remember that = we already know exactly what's going to fail. Dozens of guys have = discovered the failures before us. So I just review how your design = responds to known failures.=20 So let's see. Number one most common failure is clogged filter. At least = that's true with canards. Not sure about other aircraft. Oh, oh. Major = design oversight there. You are using design that will allow clogged = inlet filter to affect flow. Fortunately, when that happens, you've done = superb job of flagging the operator. With that large header tank, you'll = have tons of advance notice. Proactive low fuel sensor! Brilliant! Many times safer to have separate fuel inlet to each facet. Series = plumbing is almost always dramatically more dangerous than parallel. = Particularly true with fuel designs. You should be using automotive = filter bag inside tank instead of inline filter. Way safer. Way. 2nd highest risk historical failure is fuel management oversight. Like = you are flying on wrong tank, running low on fuel and don't know. Wow, = have you handled that right. Overflow from header goes back into mains. = So if you leave facet on too long, no biggie. Fuel level sense and = proactive again. Wonderful.=20 Unporting. Total non risk for you, as you would need to be unported for = around an hour to have problem.=20 Those are the three most common failures. You've done real well, but = should take further action. Thanks for sharing it! -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen Izett=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:32 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss Thanks Al I agree on the automotive angle. Could you comment on design attached for our Glasair SII RG. Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- On 29/05/2013, at 11:08 PM, Al Wick wrote: wrote: Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do without flying. I'd = sure encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump unless you = routinely operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is important = pump lubricant, should resist urge to run sys dry. If you shared pics, it would help. Particularly gascolator, = pump, plumbing. Since you get consistent good results from turning on second = pump, that points to flow restriction as likely cause. So a good test = would be to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into bucket. Measure = volume with ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will also disprove = pump theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel return line. = This is more severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad pump = would not flow much volume at 40 psi. Methodically go thru sys looking for debris, kink. Not just = gascolator, but other areas too. It's possible to have gascolator leak = air and lean sys. For that matter, you may have engine running lean due to intake = leak (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector pulse. Thus = masking true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for intake = leak. Something loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and push on = components. Review o2 sensor values. By chance do you record these = things during flight? Do you have other data that can prove it was or = was not lean? Verify each pump has independent grounds, power supply. Verify = sys voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender. We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet that's it". = Forgetting that there are some simple tests to prove it. This is = important time to be conservative and methodical. Good luck. -al wick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradburry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 7:09 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Intermittent fuel pressure loss Has anyone had an instance of intermittent failure of the fuel = pumps? A couple of days ago the engine started to intermittently lose = power and changed tanks. (both tanks were low, about 5 gal in right and = 10 or so in left) The problem stopped so I thought I had unported the = right tank. Several minutes later it started again on the left tank and I = turned on the other fuel pump. That seemed to stop it again. I still = suspected that I had unported the tanks. A couple of days later, I took off with about 45 gal and after = about a 30 min flight, the engine lost power again twice. I turned the = other fuel pump on and the problem stopped. My fuel system goes thru a Gascolator then to the two pumps, = then to a fuel filter. I assume that the Gascolator or the fuel filter could = be getting clogged, but I don't think that the other pump would bring the = pressure back if that were the case. I only have about 70 flight hours on = the pump and maybe about 100 hours total including ground runs. Also on the flight back, I had both pumps on and showing 40 = lbs of pressure. I then turned the secondary pump off and the pressure held at = 40 lbs. This strikes me that it is an intermittent pump failure. I plan to = clean the Gascolator, replace the fuel filter, and replace the pump. Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences? =20 My wife was with me on the last incident and I don't think she = is interested in trying to join Ed's glider club! Bill B -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Thanks Al I agree on the automotive angle. Could you comment on design attached for our Glasair SII RG. Steve On 29/05/2013, at 11:08 PM, Al Wick wrote: > =20 > Perfect. Encourage you to follow the same approach that every single = car mfg now uses. In the last decade they have arrived at design that = dramatically reduces all fuel risks. Unporting can't affect flow, vapor = lock risk driven to near zero. No matter how much debris you have, flow = is unaffected. It's just brilliant. You can prove this all by bench = testing. > =20 > Unfortunately it's different from traditional airplane approach, so = going to be a long time until it's adopted by planes. > =20 > -al wick > =20 > =20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Izett > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 7:46 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss >=20 > Another example of why I appreciate this list. > Thanks al, I'm fabricating our fuel system now and appreciate the = wise sober advice. > Steve Izett > Perth Western Australia > On 29/05/2013, at 9:59 PM, Al Wick wrote: >=20 >> Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do without flying. I'd = sure encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump unless you = routinely operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is important = pump lubricant, should resist urge to run sys dry. >> =20 >> If you shared pics, it would help. Particularly gascolator, pump, = plumbing. >> =20 >> Since you get consistent good results from turning on second pump, = that points to flow restriction as likely cause. So a good test would be = to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into bucket. Measure volume with = ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will also disprove pump = theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel return line. This is = more severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad pump would not = flow much volume at 40 psi. >> =20 >> Methodically go thru sys looking for debris, kink. Not just = gascolator, but other areas too. It's possible to have gascolator leak = air and lean sys. >> =20 >> For that matter, you may have engine running lean due to intake = leak (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector pulse. Thus = masking true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for intake = leak. Something loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and push on = components. Review o2 sensor values. By chance do you record these = things during flight? Do you have other data that can prove it was or = was not lean? >> =20 >> Verify each pump has independent grounds, power supply. Verify sys = voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender. >> =20 >> We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet that's it". Forgetting = that there are some simple tests to prove it. This is important time to = be conservative and methodical. >> =20 >> Good luck. >> =20 >> -al wick >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bill Bradburry >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 7:09 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Intermittent fuel pressure loss >>=20 >> Has anyone had an instance of intermittent failure of the fuel = pumps? A >> couple of days ago the engine started to intermittently lose power = and >> changed tanks. (both tanks were low, about 5 gal in right and 10 or = so in >> left) The problem stopped so I thought I had unported the right = tank. >> Several minutes later it started again on the left tank and I = turned on the >> other fuel pump. That seemed to stop it again. I still suspected = that I >> had unported the tanks. >>=20 >> A couple of days later, I took off with about 45 gal and after = about a 30 >> min flight, the engine lost power again twice. I turned the other = fuel pump >> on and the problem stopped. >>=20 >> My fuel system goes thru a Gascolator then to the two pumps, then = to a fuel >> filter. I assume that the Gascolator or the fuel filter could be = getting >> clogged, but I don't think that the other pump would bring the = pressure back >> if that were the case. I only have about 70 flight hours on the = pump and >> maybe about 100 hours total including ground runs. >>=20 >> Also on the flight back, I had both pumps on and showing 40 lbs of = pressure. >> I then turned the secondary pump off and the pressure held at 40 = lbs. This >> strikes me that it is an intermittent pump failure. I plan to = clean the >> Gascolator, replace the fuel filter, and replace the pump. >>=20 >> Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences? =20 >>=20 >> My wife was with me on the last incident and I don't think she is = interested >> in trying to join Ed's glider club! >>=20 >> Bill B >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >=20 > >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_057E_01CE5D4F.BED0D640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow. Lots of good design features.
When analyzing designs like this, it's important for me to remember = that we=20 already know exactly what's going to fail. Dozens of guys have = discovered the=20 failures before us. So I just review how your design responds to known = failures.=20
 
So let's see. Number one most common failure is clogged filter. At = least=20 that's true with canards. Not sure about other aircraft. Oh, oh. Major = design=20 oversight there. You are using design that will allow clogged inlet = filter to=20 affect flow. Fortunately, when that happens, you've done superb job of = flagging=20 the operator. With that large header tank, you'll have tons of advance = notice.=20 Proactive low fuel sensor! Brilliant!
 
Many times safer to have separate fuel inlet to each facet. Series = plumbing=20 is almost always dramatically more dangerous than parallel. Particularly = true=20 with fuel designs. You should be using automotive filter bag inside tank = instead=20 of inline filter. Way safer. Way.
 
2nd highest risk historical failure is fuel management oversight. = Like you=20 are flying on wrong tank, running low on fuel and don't know. Wow, have = you=20 handled that right. Overflow from header goes back into mains. So if you = leave=20 facet on too long, no biggie. Fuel level sense and proactive again. = Wonderful.=20
 
Unporting. Total non risk for you, as you would need to be unported = for=20 around an hour to have problem.
 
Those are the three most common failures. You've done real well, = but should=20 take further action. Thanks for sharing it!
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stephen = Izett=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 = 8:32=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Intermittent=20 fuel pressure loss

Thanks Al
I agree on the automotive angle.
Could you comment on design attached for our Glasair SII = RG.

Steve


On 29/05/2013, at 11:08 PM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:
<I'm fabricating our fuel system now
 
Perfect. Encourage you to follow the same approach that every = single=20 car mfg now uses. In the last decade they have arrived at design = that=20 dramatically reduces all fuel risks. Unporting can't affect flow, = vapor lock=20 risk driven to near zero. No matter how much debris you have, flow = is=20 unaffected. It's just brilliant. You can prove this all by bench=20 testing.
 
Unfortunately it's different from traditional airplane = approach, so=20 going to be a long time until it's adopted by planes.
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Izett
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 = 7:46=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Intermittent fuel=20 pressure loss

Another example of why I appreciate this list.
Thanks al, I'm fabricating our fuel system now and appreciate = the=20 wise sober advice.
Steve Izett
Perth Western Australia
On 29/05/2013, at 9:59 PM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:
Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do without flying. = I'd=20 sure encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump unless you = routinely operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is = important=20 pump lubricant, should resist urge to run sys dry.
 
If you shared pics, it would help. Particularly gascolator, = pump,=20 plumbing.
 
Since you get consistent good results from turning on = second pump,=20 that points to flow restriction as likely cause. So a good = test=20 would be to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into bucket. = Measure=20 volume with ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will also = disprove=20 pump theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel return = line.=20 This is more severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad = pump=20 would not flow much volume at 40 psi.
 
Methodically go thru sys looking for debris, kink. Not just = gascolator, but other areas too. It's possible to have = gascolator leak=20 air and lean sys.
 
For that matter, you may have engine running lean due to = intake=20 leak (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector pulse. = Thus=20 masking true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for = intake=20 leak. Something loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and = push on=20 components. Review o2 sensor values. By chance do you record = these=20 things during flight? Do you have other data that can prove it = was or=20 was not lean?
 
Verify each pump has independent grounds, power supply. = Verify sys=20 voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender.
 
We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet that's it". = Forgetting=20 that there are some simple tests to prove it. This is important = time to=20 be conservative and methodical.
 
Good luck.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
----- Original Message = -----
From: Bill = Bradburry
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Monday, May 27, = 2013 7:09=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Intermittent fuel=20 pressure loss

Has anyone had an instance of intermittent = failure of=20 the fuel pumps?  A
couple of days ago the engine = started to=20 intermittently lose power and
changed tanks. (both tanks = were low,=20 about 5 gal in right and 10 or so in
left)  The = problem=20 stopped so I thought I had unported the right tank.
Several = minutes=20 later it started again on the left tank and I turned on = the
other=20 fuel pump.  That seemed to stop it again.  I still = suspected=20 that I
had unported the tanks.

A couple of days = later, I=20 took off with about 45 gal and after about a 30
min flight, = the=20 engine lost power again twice.  I turned the other fuel=20 pump
on and the problem stopped.

My fuel system goes = thru a=20 Gascolator then to the two pumps, then to a = fuel
filter.  I=20 assume that the Gascolator or the fuel filter could be=20 getting
clogged, but I don't think that the other pump = would bring=20 the pressure back
if that were the case.  I only have = about 70=20 flight hours on the pump and
maybe about 100 hours total = including=20 ground runs.

Also on the flight back, I had both pumps = on and=20 showing 40 lbs of pressure.
I then turned the secondary = pump off=20 and the pressure held at 40 lbs.  This
strikes me that = it is=20 an intermittent pump failure.  I plan to clean = the
Gascolator,=20 replace the fuel filter, and replace the pump.

Any = thoughts,=20 suggestions, experiences?  

My wife was = with me=20 on the last incident and I don't think she is interested
in = trying=20 to join Ed's glider club!

Bill=20 B


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve=20 and UnSub:   http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

=
<steve_pastor_esig.jpeg>



Thanks Al
I agree on the automotive angle.
Could you = comment on=20 design attached for our Glasair SII RG.

Steve
On 29/05/2013, = at=20 11:08 PM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> wrote:

> <I'm=20 fabricating our fuel system now
> 
> Perfect. = Encourage you=20 to follow the same approach that every single car mfg now uses. In the = last=20 decade they have arrived at design that dramatically reduces all fuel = risks.=20 Unporting can't affect flow, vapor lock risk driven to near zero. No = matter=20 how much debris you have, flow is unaffected. It's just brilliant. You = can=20 prove this all by bench testing.
> 
> Unfortunately = it's=20 different from traditional airplane approach, so going to be a long = time until=20 it's adopted by planes.
> 
> -al wick
> =20
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: = Stephen=20 Izett
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Sent: Wednesday, = May 29,=20 2013 7:46 AM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel = pressure=20 loss
>
> Another example of why I appreciate this = list.
>=20 Thanks al, I'm fabricating our fuel system now and appreciate the wise = sober=20 advice.
> Steve Izett
> Perth Western Australia
> On = 29/05/2013, at 9:59 PM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
> =
>> Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do without = flying. I'd=20 sure encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump unless you = routinely=20 operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is important pump = lubricant,=20 should resist urge to run sys dry.
>> 
>> If = you=20 shared pics, it would help. Particularly gascolator, pump,=20 plumbing.
>> 
>> Since you get consistent good = results=20 from turning on second pump, that points to flow restriction as likely = cause.=20 So a good test would be to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into = bucket.=20 Measure volume with ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will = also=20 disprove pump theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel = return line.=20 This is more severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad pump = would not=20 flow much volume at 40 psi.
>> 
>> = Methodically go=20 thru sys looking for debris, kink. Not just gascolator, but other = areas too.=20 It's possible to have gascolator leak air and lean = sys.
>> =20
>> For that matter, you may have engine running lean due to = intake=20 leak (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector pulse. Thus = masking=20 true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for intake leak. = Something=20 loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and push on components. = Review o2=20 sensor values. By chance do you record these things during flight? Do = you have=20 other data that can prove it was or was not lean?
>> =20
>> Verify each pump has independent grounds, power supply. = Verify=20 sys voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender.
>>  =
>>=20 We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet that's it". Forgetting = that there=20 are some simple tests to prove it. This is important time to be = conservative=20 and methodical.
>> 
>> Good = luck.
>> =20
>> -al wick
>> 
>>  =
>> =20
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bill=20 Bradburry
>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Sent: = Monday,=20 May 27, 2013 7:09 AM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Intermittent = fuel=20 pressure loss
>>
>> Has anyone had an instance of=20 intermittent failure of the fuel pumps?  A
>> couple of = days ago=20 the engine started to intermittently lose power and
>> = changed tanks.=20 (both tanks were low, about 5 gal in right and 10 or so in
>> = left)  The problem stopped so I thought I had unported the right=20 tank.
>> Several minutes later it started again on the left = tank and=20 I turned on the
>> other fuel pump.  That seemed to stop = it=20 again.  I still suspected that I
>> had unported the=20 tanks.
>>
>> A couple of days later, I took off = with about=20 45 gal and after about a 30
>> min flight, the engine lost = power=20 again twice.  I turned the other fuel pump
>> on and the = problem=20 stopped.
>>
>> My fuel system goes thru a = Gascolator then=20 to the two pumps, then to a fuel
>> filter.  I assume = that the=20 Gascolator or the fuel filter could be getting
>> clogged, = but I=20 don't think that the other pump would bring the pressure = back
>> if=20 that were the case.  I only have about 70 flight hours on the = pump=20 and
>> maybe about 100 hours total including ground = runs.
>>=20
>> Also on the flight back, I had both pumps on and showing = 40 lbs=20 of pressure.
>> I then turned the secondary pump off and the = pressure=20 held at 40 lbs.  This
>> strikes me that it is an = intermittent=20 pump failure.  I plan to clean the
>> Gascolator, = replace the=20 fuel filter, and replace the pump.
>>
>> Any = thoughts,=20 suggestions, experiences? 
>>
>> My wife was = with me=20 on the last incident and I don't think she is interested
>> = in trying=20 to join Ed's glider club!
>>
>> Bill B
>>=20
>>
>> --
>> Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> =
>=20 <steve_pastor_esig.jpeg>
>
>=20



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