X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with SMTP id 6295989 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 May 2013 11:00:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1369839620; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=KV0d0tbvMZ0uI5B0koOdjHTaVc9pAOLX9ejR+OcXGrXlYlepwOn+//HPVLQr51Yxp v2FWb97wJQAvTB4O3EDCWfeiJX4C2k8GuKYQjfzQdow1pp2GILGKBSFD9l8kD2tr2a ioLdrePb8whJ7IgKMI1dlYLcBkf0wJ2MNnK0ogb4= Received: from Penny (50-39-187-139.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.187.139]) by smtpout01.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABJ4NF9ZADQTDSA for (sender ); Wed, 29 May 2013 08:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3AB341FAED124FC4B5DD222143BD7103@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: [Bulk] [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 08:00:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_04EF_01CE5C42.87B36140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 18989 X-ContentStamp: 32:16:3886549613 X-MAIL-INFO:42bd152dbd4975710c2d490d403480a00125603000ad291945e5c020740551352975d9d9b5e14009917970091ddd241da5d0e9ed35b4a5a9a92054a90d54354d112011318df570cd3509b541549550ddc970a43451d0147de060bd60e57174e5bd49f0bd7521041410510561b941290510a07da074114101a004b435393539b5953979b5c179b5b00149c07561b021bdb175710da930304d40f581d0351139448d35790909cd8de1dd1d91509550d5f4b1213179b5d5091db0c46d449d25a4146d449d7d6565c40464c41060b0b56d9d19c0a0ade064e0f07001e45951106015bdbde97471c03d49d9b1 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkEGipJ07QncArOZKiH4o4/rWBQqXR+HPrw== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.31|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_04EF_01CE5C42.87B36140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Use unlit propane torch. Good stuff here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/maintenance/how-to-find-a-vac= uum-leak-2 -al ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 7:47 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [Bulk] [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel = pressure loss Some good stuff in there, Al! What is the propane test?? =20 B2 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Wick Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [Bulk] [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss =20 Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do without flying. I'd sure = encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump unless you routinely = operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is important pump = lubricant, should resist urge to run sys dry.=20 =20 If you shared pics, it would help. Particularly gascolator, pump, = plumbing.=20 =20 Since you get consistent good results from turning on second pump, = that points to flow restriction as likely cause. So a good test would be = to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into bucket. Measure volume with = ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will also disprove pump = theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel return line. This is = more severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad pump would not = flow much volume at 40 psi.=20 =20 Methodically go thru sys looking for debris, kink. Not just = gascolator, but other areas too. It's possible to have gascolator leak = air and lean sys.=20 =20 For that matter, you may have engine running lean due to intake leak = (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector pulse. Thus masking = true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for intake leak. = Something loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and push on = components. Review o2 sensor values. By chance do you record these = things during flight? Do you have other data that can prove it was or = was not lean? =20 Verify each pump has independent grounds, power supply. Verify sys = voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender.=20 =20 We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet that's it". Forgetting = that there are some simple tests to prove it. This is important time to = be conservative and methodical.=20 =20 Good luck.=20 =20 -al wick =20 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 7:09 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Intermittent fuel pressure loss =20 Has anyone had an instance of intermittent failure of the fuel = pumps? A couple of days ago the engine started to intermittently lose power = and changed tanks. (both tanks were low, about 5 gal in right and 10 or = so in left) The problem stopped so I thought I had unported the right = tank. Several minutes later it started again on the left tank and I turned = on the other fuel pump. That seemed to stop it again. I still suspected = that I had unported the tanks. A couple of days later, I took off with about 45 gal and after about = a 30 min flight, the engine lost power again twice. I turned the other = fuel pump on and the problem stopped. My fuel system goes thru a Gascolator then to the two pumps, then to = a fuel filter. I assume that the Gascolator or the fuel filter could be = getting clogged, but I don't think that the other pump would bring the = pressure back if that were the case. I only have about 70 flight hours on the = pump and maybe about 100 hours total including ground runs. Also on the flight back, I had both pumps on and showing 40 lbs of = pressure. I then turned the secondary pump off and the pressure held at 40 = lbs. This strikes me that it is an intermittent pump failure. I plan to clean = the Gascolator, replace the fuel filter, and replace the pump. Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences? =20 My wife was with me on the last incident and I don't think she is = interested in trying to join Ed's glider club! Bill B -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_04EF_01CE5C42.87B36140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Use unlit propane torch. Good stuff here:
 
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/maintenan= ce/how-to-find-a-vacuum-leak-2
 
-al
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 = 7:47=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [Bulk] = [FlyRotary] Re: Intermittent fuel pressure loss

Some good = stuff in=20 there, Al!  What is the propane = test??

 

B2

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al Wick
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 = 10:00=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [Bulk] [FlyRotary] Re: = Intermittent fuel pressure loss

 

Hey Bill. A whole bunch of tests you can do = without=20 flying. I'd sure encourage that. Highly unlikely it's a fuel pump = unless you=20 routinely operate them without fuel. As Jeff suggests, fuel is = important pump=20 lubricant, should resist urge to run sys dry.=20

 

If you shared pics, it would help. = Particularly=20 gascolator, pump, plumbing.

 

Since you get consistent good results from = turning on=20 second pump, that points to flow restriction as likely cause. So = a good=20 test would be to undo fitting at engine and pump fuel into bucket. = Measure=20 volume with ruler and stopwatch. Pump 1, pump 2. This will also = disprove pump=20 theory. You could repeat test by disconnecting fuel return line. This = is more=20 severe test as now pump has to achieve 40 psi. Bad pump would not flow = much=20 volume at 40 psi.

 

Methodically go thru sys looking for debris, = kink. Not=20 just gascolator, but other areas too. It's possible to have gascolator = leak=20 air and lean sys.

 

For that matter, you may have engine running = lean due=20 to intake leak (other?), 2nd pump adds touch more fuel per injector = pulse.=20 Thus masking true cause. So I'd do the propane test (or other) for = intake=20 leak. Something loosen during flight and allow leak. Poke and push on=20 components. Review o2 sensor values. By chance do you record these = things=20 during flight? Do you have other data that can prove it was or was not = lean?

 

Verify each pump has independent grounds, = power=20 supply. Verify sys voltage. Recalibrate fuel pressure sender.=20

 

We have natural tendency to say "aha, I bet = that's=20 it". Forgetting that there are some simple tests to prove it. This is=20 important time to be conservative and methodical.=20

 

Good luck. =

 

-al wick

 

 

 

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Monday,=20 May 27, 2013 7:09 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Intermittent fuel pressure=20 loss

 

Has anyone had an instance of intermittent = failure=20 of the fuel pumps?  A
couple of days ago the engine started = to=20 intermittently lose power and
changed tanks. (both tanks were = low, about=20 5 gal in right and 10 or so in
left)  The problem stopped so = I=20 thought I had unported the right tank.
Several minutes later it = started=20 again on the left tank and I turned on the
other fuel pump.  = That=20 seemed to stop it again.  I still suspected that I
had = unported the=20 tanks.

A couple of days later, I took off with about 45 gal = and after=20 about a 30
min flight, the engine lost power again twice.  I = turned=20 the other fuel pump
on and the problem stopped.

My fuel = system=20 goes thru a Gascolator then to the two pumps, then to a=20 fuel
filter.  I assume that the Gascolator or the fuel = filter could=20 be getting
clogged, but I don't think that the other pump would = bring the=20 pressure back
if that were the case.  I only have about 70 = flight=20 hours on the pump and
maybe about 100 hours total including = ground=20 runs.

Also on the flight back, I had both pumps on and = showing 40 lbs=20 of pressure.
I then turned the secondary pump off and the = pressure held=20 at 40 lbs.  This
strikes me that it is an intermittent pump=20 failure.  I plan to clean the
Gascolator, replace the fuel = filter,=20 and replace the pump.

Any thoughts, suggestions, = experiences? =20

My wife was with me on the last incident and I don't think = she is=20 interested
in trying to join Ed's glider club!

Bill=20 B


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archi= ve=20 and UnSub:   http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

------=_NextPart_000_04EF_01CE5C42.87B36140--