X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from hub026-NJ-7.exch026.serverdata.net ([206.225.166.170] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6293095 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 28 May 2013 08:30:28 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.225.166.170; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from MBX026-E1-NJ-6.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.56]) by HUB026-NJ-7.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.233]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 28 May 2013 05:29:52 -0700 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: oil cooler mount question Thread-Topic: RE: oil cooler mount question Thread-Index: Ac5bnwxOXiIAHf7CQJWvvCnPMJXGYQ== Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:29:52 +0000 Message-ID: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7@mbx026-e1-nj-6.exch026.domain.local> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [209.87.232.162] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_" --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie, an exit duct is a good idea especially where there are two separat= e cooling systems, 1 for water and 1 for oil. The exit duct on 1 system wi= ll isolate the exit air or cowling pressure from the other. Also if one co= oler has some extra capacity the exit duct is handy for controlling air flo= w and temperature of that loop. I intend to have one on my next radiator i= nstall for both of those reasons; my radiator hangs under the engine from t= he mount and I have 2 oil coolers, 1 in each cheek. I can't tell from your photo how much room there is between the oil cooler = and the heat shield or start of your exit duct but there should be close to= 1 foot of unrestricted air flow from the center of your oil cooler. That = side of the engine is busy with intake and exhaust so there's not a lot of = room to play with. The exhaust system and under cowl temperatures will ben= efit if the cooler on that side simply spills its exit air into the engine = compartment and flows out over the exhaust. Lots to consider ... but doing= it your own way is always the most fun. Jeff From: Charlie England Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler mount question Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 14:01:10 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] Hi Jeff, You may be right; in fact, you're probably right. But... Keeping radiant energy away from the heat exchanger was really a minor fact= or in my thought process. A data point: Every really fast (on reasonable HP= ) plane I've looked at (both liquid & air cooled) has used some form of exi= t duct to channel the heated air back into the free stream. The stuff in th= e pic is the beginnings of an exit duct for the oil cooler. It will be far = from an optimum shape because of space limitations; maybe so far from optim= um that I'll cut it away shortly after 1st engine start. But I'm going to t= ake a shot at it to see what happens. 'Education & Entertainment', is why w= e get to do this, right? I do have at least a layman's concept of why it might be a good idea to use= an exit duct. Everyone struggles with pressure differential between front = & back of heat exchangers. Everyone pays attention to the inlet side to kee= p the air flowing smoothly & to expand the area of the inlet so it slows do= wn & gains pressure. So what happens on the exit side of the core? It expan= ds again, into a massive area, where it slows down again, gaining more pre= ssure but now with totally chaotic flow. This begs the question: What happe= ns to the desired pressure differential across the core? If there's an Aero guy who can tell me that the *idea* of exit ducts is bad= , I'm willing to be educated, and to save some time, money & trouble. But t= he empirical evidence of their goodness is compelling, even with the tortur= ous paths I've seen in Lyc installations. So I'd like to give exit ducts a shot. It's easier to do the ducts now than= after everything is built (I'll never go back once it's finished), & if it= doesn't work, 10 minutes on a band saw & it will all be gone. :-) Charlie On 05/27/2013 07:18 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote: Charlie, I used strips of 1/8" rubber the same way Ed described. I had to rotate your photo 90 degrees to see the whole picture ... it look= s like you're trying to heat-shield your intake with a plate behind the coo= ler; I think you'll be more disappointed with the cooler's performance than= you will the intake's performance if you leave that shield in place. Tigh= tly diffuse the inlet side - leave the outlet side open - my 2 cents worth. Jeff From: Charlie England Subject: oil cooler mount question Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:13:09 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] I've started design/fabrication/redesign of my oil cooler mount/diffuser. J= ust as I had a 'final' answer on the mount & was contemplating the diffuser= , it occurred to me that I didn't have any shock mount provisions for the h= eat exchanger. For those who have been flying for a while, have any of you = hard mounted the cooler to its support structure? As the photo shows, the p= rimary mount is direct to the reduction drive plate. I would simply add the= shock mounts, but if I use this particular cooler (a CX Racing 30 row unit= like the one on Tracy's 20B), I won't have any room. I do have the option = of buying a 25 row or using the 19 row I already have on hand, but I'd rath= er have a bit too much capacity & throttle the exit air than start with too= little & have to rebuild everything. Thanks, Charlie This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Charlie, an exit duct is a good idea especially wher= e there are two separate cooling systems, 1 for water and 1 for oil.  = The exit duct on 1 system will isolate the exit air or cowling pressure fro= m the other.  Also if one cooler has some extra capacity the exit duct is handy for controlling air flow and tempera= ture of that loop.  I intend to have one on my next radiator install f= or both of those reasons; my radiator hangs under the engine from the mount= and I have 2 oil coolers, 1 in each cheek.

I can’t tell from your photo how much room the= re is between the oil cooler and the heat shield or start of your exit duct= but there should be close to 1 foot of unrestricted air flow from the cent= er of your oil cooler.  That side of the engine is busy with intake and exhaust so there’s not a lot of room = to play with.  The exhaust system and under cowl temperatures will ben= efit if the cooler on that side simply spills its exit air into the engine = compartment and flows out over the exhaust.  Lots to consider … but doing it your own way is always the mos= t fun.

Jeff

 

 

From:

Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.co= m>

Subject:

Re: [FlyRotary] Re: oil cooler mount qu= estion

Date:

Mon, 27 May 2013 14:01:10 -0500<= /p>

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>

3D"Message

Hi Jeff,

You may be right; in fact, you're probably right.

But...

Keeping radiant energy away from the heat exchanger was really a minor fact= or in my thought process. A data point: Every really fast (on reasonable HP= ) plane I've looked at (both liquid & air cooled) has used some form of= exit duct to channel the heated air back into the free stream. The stuff in the pic is the beginnings of an ex= it duct for the oil cooler. It will be far from an optimum shape because of= space limitations; maybe so far from optimum that I'll cut it away shortly= after 1st engine start. But I'm going to take a shot at it to see what happens. 'Education & Entertain= ment', is why we get to do this, right?

I do have at least a layman's concept of why it might be a good idea to use= an exit duct. Everyone struggles with pressure differential between front = & back of heat exchangers. Everyone pays attention to the inlet side to= keep the air flowing smoothly & to expand the area of the inlet so it slows down & gains pressure. So wha= t happens on the exit side of the core? It expands again, into a massive ar= ea,  where it slows down again, gaining more pressure but now with tot= ally chaotic flow. This begs the question: What happens to the desired pressure differential across the core?

If there's an Aero guy who can tell me that the *idea* of exit ducts is bad= , I'm willing to be educated, and to save some time, money & trouble. B= ut the empirical evidence of their goodness is compelling, even with the to= rturous paths I've seen in Lyc installations.

So I'd like to give exit ducts a shot. It's easier to do the ducts now than= after everything is built (I'll never go back once it's finished), & i= f it doesn't work, 10 minutes on a band saw & it will all be gone. :-)<= br>
Charlie



On 05/27/2013 07:18 AM, Jeff Whaley wrote:

Charlie, I used strips of 1/8” rubb= er the same way Ed described.

I  had to rotate your photo 90 degre= es to see the whole picture … it looks like you’re trying to he= at-shield your intake with a plate behind the cooler; I think you’ll = be more disappointed with the cooler’s performance than you will the intake’s performance if you leave that shield in place.&nbs= p; Tightly diffuse the inlet side – leave the outlet side open –= ; my 2 cents worth.

Jeff

 From:

Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>

Subject:=

oil cooler mount question

Date:

Sun, 26 May 2013 12:13:09 -0500

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

3D"Message

3D"Undecoded

I've started design/fabrication/redesign = of my oil cooler mount/diffuser. Just as I had a 'final' answer on the moun= t & was contemplating the diffuser, it occurred to me that I didn't hav= e any shock mount provisions for the heat exchanger. For those who have been flying for a while, have any of you har= d mounted the cooler to its support structure? As the photo shows, the prim= ary mount is direct to the reduction drive plate. I would simply add the sh= ock mounts, but if I use this particular cooler (a CX Racing 30 row unit like the one on Tracy's 20B), I won't have= any room. I do have the option of buying a 25 row or using the 19 row I al= ready have on hand, but I'd rather have a bit too much capacity & throt= tle the exit air than start with too little & have to rebuild everything.

Thanks,

Charlie

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_-- --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Description: image001.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.gif"; size=849; creation-date="Tue, 28 May 2013 12:29:52 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 28 May 2013 12:29:52 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Description: image002.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image002.gif"; size=857; creation-date="Tue, 28 May 2013 12:29:52 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 28 May 2013 12:29:52 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A35F741C7mbx026e1nj6exch_--