X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5695012 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 09:49:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1344260960; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=fmoHd2qYIn889e2hxeMbMZC8GsM3FVAV1Ax5BByIh5qQjM4pnfe3gWk5E4XP4DJtl JfEXV0bTycQIwl+LiHm1N07XcwMPo218wXZ3n1hwVYVBhIQ0OFOHgKk4quQsoTbygn N0N1ZzmYQyIfYNNgEFCX7n09srnd1KzEzB6hPqJM= Received: from Penny (50-39-178-167.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.178.167]) by smtpout02.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJB9U4AAGBGAHA for (sender ); Mon, 6 Aug 2012 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 06:48:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_030E_01CD739F.8707EBD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 23506 X-ContentStamp: 53:26:2043025216 X-MAIL-INFO: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 411d0ca5bdd9e14ccdbc78ec8d31bc059d7c2cb8a955359d580511c531d1a8c9418d759dddb5185cdcbd389188b5fcd959c18cb935dc918c9188e891cc35f19155f1896978e5e15d78e9 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkHdvTgSdstBNkO7MTRoHxFq2JLefDu3qZA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.32|smtpout02.vgs.untd.com|smtpout02.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_030E_01CD739F.8707EBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm = worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, = but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator = for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching = on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and = let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all but not an = ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter = area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel = filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up = in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard = wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side = filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning = fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy = wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. = So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side = filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing = high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety = improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No = matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It = minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning = filter. Self priming pumps.=20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from = Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk = assessment info: http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just = experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with = such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... = obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard = =20 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing=20 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =20 =20 =20 =20 Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We = were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a = close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad = MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep = downward but didn't think it was a big problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight = from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to = zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the = ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power = switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and = put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought = me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full = grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage = besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers = were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. = Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their = driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up = on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking = space and a very warm reception from the formation group and friends. = Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the = obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. --=20 David Leonard =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is = intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_030E_01CD739F.8707EBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle=20 easily?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY above = others.=20 What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what the optimum = surface area=20 is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it clogs needlessly. Too coarse, = you=20 increase risk of injector clog. Too little surface area, it won't last. = They=20 even take into consideration unusual needs, like people that operate at = super=20 high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged filters. = Never=20 happens any more because they have new tools to optimize designs. For = example,=20 their course filter screen has around 10 times more surface area than = any=20 airplane filter. Self cleaning,  screen size optimized. So debris = can't=20 affect your car. It's just brilliant.
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. = Unaware of how=20 close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years with = marginal=20 design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are promoting = failure.=20
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 = 1:35=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel = Filters. Was:=20 Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration do we=20 need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit through = the=20 injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronze = element=20 at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen version at 85 = mic.  The=20 Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, = 60, and=20 100 micron SS screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Syste= ms/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to = retrofit, and=20 not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.  Lots of other = brands=20 I have  not explored yet.

I like the sintered bronze for = strength=20 and durability.  Other opinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David = Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with = maybe 10 sq=20 cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks=20 Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. =  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks.   = I used a=20 gascolator for low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK and when = it=20 clogged,  switching on the backup pump with main pump caused = the=20 screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it.   which is = better=20 than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TONS = of=20 filter area, works great.   That was a replacement for the = Summit=20 Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a = nickel.=20  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any = low side=20 filters.  Would be interested in a source for the = self-cleaning=20 fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions.

-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy = <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side =  filter.=20    So for the record, was it the inlet side or the = high=20 pressure side filter that clogged?  ( Both are needed ) = From the=20 symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety = improvement=20 by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No = matter how=20 much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog.=20 It minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor = lock. Self=20 cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. =
Expert at=20 failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop = construct, Risk=20 assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message = -----
From: Jeff Whaley
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Saturday, = August 04,=20 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just = experienced I=20 would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with = such=20 little damage.  Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot = of time=20 ... obviously you made the right choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] = Rotary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 = -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded =
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been = meaning to=20 fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses = blew on my=20 fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 = aircraft at the=20 time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in = Iowa as=20 I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but = didn't=20 think it was a big problem.

On the incident = flight,=20 a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass = arrival at=20 OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I = actually=20 though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the = ability to=20 give it a lot of attention because we were in a = loose=20 formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a = tight=20 formation power switched off. I tried to find a = road, but=20 quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean = field.=20 With the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a = stop in=20 about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the = full=20 grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half = but no=20 other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of = every nook=20 and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the = stories are=20 true... they have attractive daughters. They were = out there=20 barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the = excitement.=20 Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the = fuses.=20 Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from = one of=20 their driveways as they all waived good bye (but = strangely,=20 no one took me up on my offer for a = ride).

Landed at=20 OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and = a very=20 warm reception from the formation group and friends. = Great=20 support from everyone all around, though I am trying = to=20 avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to = give=20 me.

--
David = Leonard

This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is=20 intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged = or=20 confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is = strictly=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in error, = please=20 notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal = records.=20 Please then delete the original message. Thank you.=20 =
=
<= BR>
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
<= /DIV>

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net
------=_NextPart_000_030E_01CD739F.8707EBD0--