X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5694732 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 08:22:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=Dp/UCRD+ c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=AHkS0RJitIMA:10 a=OY0MDw7fbgsA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=wzN344fxAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=qiXUx-lLAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=mMGPZoQZGV22e6rLTeUA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=aqJpCG5j6i9d3YDaO9sA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=at0Q5_2dr5wA:10 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:53986] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 3F/E5-13948-DF6BF105; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 12:22:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1E24012B4263479AA25480F81D2792B7@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Saginw Fittings Fuel Filters: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice? Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:22:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01CD73AC.98F5FF00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01CD73AC.98F5FF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie, Dug back in the files and found this on the GM High Pressure fuel filter = and saginaw fittings. Not certain how current any of this is, but = should get you started. Ed Fuel Filters: OEM Auto Fuel Injector Fuel Filters (Two in Parallel) Type: AC GF - 481 Pkg: 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or equivalent) Replace by GF652 or NAPA FIL 3481 Fittings: 3/8 Saginaw to AN6 Adapter, "O" ring required Earls Saginaw fitting : P/N 991955ERL 16mmx1.50" - AN-6 Power = Steering/Fuel Injection -"0" ring seal Accel Saginaw Parts Fuel Filter Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (2 ea):74721 TPI Fuel Rail Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (1 ea), 5/16 Saginaw to AN6 (1 ea): 74730 The 3/8" Saginaw fitting uses a M16x1.5 thread.=20 From: Tracy=20 Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 10:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice? Mark. S. (and anyone else with PP engine experience) How did you end up getting a usable MP signal for the EC2/3? I have = another couple of builders who took Paul L's advice and used PP engines = with slide throttle mounted right to the ports. They are not having = any luck getting a stable MP using the oil injection ports on the rotor = housing. =20 Did you ever come up with a good solution? Thanks, Tracy Crook Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: Charlie, =20 My system uses those EFI filters also. They are Fram p/n G3727. They = take a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic). I don't recall = where I purchased my AN-Saginaw fittings. Mark S. =20 On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England = wrote: I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter = configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline = filter, with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the = regulator. There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is = the only pic I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic. Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy? Charlie On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:=20 So my next question is how small of filtration do we need? ie, = what is the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle = easily? I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I = also could use the SS screen version at 85 mic. The Peterson in line = 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS = screens. = http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Fil= ters/1528539/10002/-1 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to = retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls. Lots = of other brands I have not explored yet. I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability. Other = opinions? Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard = wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq = cm worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. = OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a = gascolator for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, = switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to = collapse and let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all = but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of = filter area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing = fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged = up in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard = wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side = filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning = fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy = wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. = So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side = filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing = high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" = wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety = improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No = matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It = minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning = filter. Self priming pumps.=20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours = from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk = assessment info: http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just = experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with = such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... = obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard = =20 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing=20 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =20 =20 =20 =20 Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess = up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I = was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got = some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow = creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation = flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted = down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have = the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power = switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and = put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought = me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full = grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage = besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers = were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. = Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their = driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up = on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved = parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and = friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to = avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. --=20 David Leonard =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is = intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5180 - Release Date: = 08/05/12 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01CD73AC.98F5FF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charlie,
 
Dug back in the files and found this on the = GM High=20 Pressure fuel filter and saginaw fittings.  Not certain how current = any of=20 this is, but should get you started.
 
Ed
 
Fuel Filters:    OEM Auto Fuel = Injector=20 Fuel Filters (Two in Parallel)
Type:    AC GF - 481 = Pkg:=20 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or equivalent)
Replace=20 by            = ; =20 GF652 or NAPA FIL 3481
Fittings:   3/8 = Saginaw to=20 AN6 Adapter, =93O=94 ring required
 

Earls Saginaw fitting : P/N 991955ERL 16mmx1.50" - AN-6  = Power=20 Steering/Fuel Injection -"0" ring seal
 

Accel Saginaw Parts
 

Fuel Filter Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (2 ea):74721

TPI Fuel Rail Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (1 ea), = 5/16
Saginaw=20 to AN6 (1
ea): 74730
 

The 3/8" Saginaw fitting uses a M16x1.5 thread. =

From: Tracy
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 10:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice?

Mark. S.  (and anyone else with PP engine experience)

How did you end up getting a usable MP signal for the EC2/3?   =  I=20 have another couple of builders who took Paul L's advice and used PP = engines=20 with slide throttle mounted right to the ports.   They are not = having any=20 luck getting a stable MP using the oil injection ports on the rotor = housing.=20   

Did you ever come up with a good solution?

Thanks,
Tracy Crook

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> = wrote:

Charlie, =20

My system uses those EFI filters also.  They are Fram p/n = G3727.=20  They take a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic). =  I don't=20 recall where I purchased my AN-Saginaw fittings.

Mark S.   

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie = England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I'm not flying yet, but I = more or less=20 copied Ed Anderson's filter configuration: each high pressure pump = feeds a=20 separate GM inline filter, with the outputs from the filters T'd = back=20 together to feed the regulator. There are AN adapters that screw = into the=20 filter. Attached is the only pic I could find. The pumps are off the = bottom=20 of the pic.

Ed, do you have the NAPA #=20 handy?

Charlie


On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David = Leonard=20 wrote:=20
So my next question is how small of = filtration do=20 we need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit = through=20 the injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered = bronze=20 element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen version = at 85=20 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive = and=20 comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600= -Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to = retrofit,=20 and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.  Lots = of other=20 brands I have  not explored yet.

I like the sintered = bronze=20 for strength and durability.  Other opinions?

Dave=20 Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David = Leonard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 = sq cm=20 worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks=20 Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank = pumps.=20  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =   I=20 used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4.  Worked = OK and=20 when it clogged,  switching on the backup pump with main = pump=20 caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it. =  =20 which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal = solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with = TONS of=20 filter area, works great.   That was a replacement for = the Summit=20 Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a = nickel.=20  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have = any low=20 side filters.  Would be interested in a source for the=20 self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al=20 mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary = RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, = Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side=20  filter.    So for the record, was it the = inlet=20 side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? =  ( Both=20 are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but = not=20 sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety=20 improvement by using same fuel filter method that all = cars use.=20 No matter how much foreign material you throw at = it, it=20 can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower = risk of=20 vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. =
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. =
Expert=20 at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop = construct,=20 Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message = -----=20
From: Jeff Whaley
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Saturday, = August=20 04, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just=20 experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting = down=20 safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at = 1500 AGL=20 there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the = right=20 choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] = Rotary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 = -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded=20
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been = meaning=20 to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the = fuses=20 blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close = formation of 40=20 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad = MOGAS=20 somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return = flow=20 creep downward but didn't think it was a big = problem.=20

On the incident flight, a one hour = formation=20 flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the = return=20 fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually = though it was=20 a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to = give it a=20 lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation.=20 Soon after we pulled it together for a tight = formation=20 power switched off. I tried to find a road, but = quickly=20 ran out of options and put it down in a bean = field. With=20 the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a = stop in=20 about 200ft, just before I would have gone into = the full=20 grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in = half but=20 no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out = of every=20 nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and = the=20 stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They=20 were out there barefoot in their Sunday best = enjoying=20 the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter = and=20 replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I = was able=20 to take off from one of their driveways as they = all=20 waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me = up on my=20 offer for a ride).

Landed at OSH just = before dark=20 to a reserved parking space and a very warm = reception=20 from the formation group and friends. Great = support from=20 everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid = the=20 obvious new call signs they are trying to give=20 me.

--
David=20 Leonard
This = message, and=20 the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the=20 addressee and may contain privileged or confidential=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in = error, please=20 notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal=20 records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.=20 =
=
<= BR>
-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


--
Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


<Saginaw_2_AN.jpg>
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive=20 and UnSub:   http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / = Virus=20 Database: 2437/5180 - Release Date: 08/05/12

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01CD73AC.98F5FF00--