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[70.193.207.200]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w5sm14258061anl.10.2012.08.05.19.49.05 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 05 Aug 2012 19:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: PP engine advice? References: From: Tracy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-AE3F926A-93E8-42BC-87DE-44DFEC37402D X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0AFD8C78-DBEA-4DE2-B5E6-62E5147EAB9F@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 22:49:00 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-AE3F926A-93E8-42BC-87DE-44DFEC37402D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark. S. (and anyone else with PP engine experience) How did you end up getting a usable MP signal for the EC2/3? I have anoth= er couple of builders who took Paul L's advice and used PP engines with slid= e throttle mounted right to the ports. They are not having any luck gettin= g a stable MP using the oil injection ports on the rotor housing. =20 Did you ever come up with a good solution? Thanks, Tracy Crook Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Charlie,=20 >=20 > My system uses those EFI filters also. They are Fram p/n G3727. They tak= e a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic). I don't recall where I pu= rchased my AN-Saginaw fittings. >=20 > Mark S. =20 >=20 > On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England w= rote: > I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter configu= ration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline filter, with the o= utputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the regulator. There are A= N adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the only pic I could find= . The pumps are off the bottom of the pic. >=20 > Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy? >=20 > Charlie >=20 >=20 > On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote: >>=20 >> So my next question is how small of filtration do we need? ie, what is t= he size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily? >>=20 >> I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also co= uld use the SS screen version at 85 mic. The Peterson in line 600 series is= MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens. >>=20 >> http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Fil= ters/1528539/10002/-1 >>=20 >> Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retrofit= , and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls. Lots of other bran= ds I have not explored yet. >>=20 >> I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability. Other opinions? >>=20 >> Dave Leonard >>=20 >> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard wrot= e: >> Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth o= f area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. >>=20 >> Dave Leonard >>=20 >> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wrote: >> Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, but ve= ry hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator for low sid= e filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching on the backup p= ump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it= . which is better than no fuel at all but not an ide= al solution. >>=20 >> On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, w= orks great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a= filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up in about about 5 h= ours of flight. >>=20 >> Tracy >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard wrote: >>=20 >>> Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side filters. W= ould be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side fil= ters that Al mentions. >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> David Leonard >>>=20 >>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >>> http://RotaryRoster.net >>>=20 >>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy wrote: >>> I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. So for the r= ecord, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? = ( Both are needed ) =46rom the symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure= . >>>=20 >>> BTW, nice job! >>>=20 >>> Tracy >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" wrote: >>>=20 >>>> As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using s= ame fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign materia= l you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk o= f vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. >>>> =20 >>>> -Al Wick >>>> Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 >>>> Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, O= regon >>>> Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment inf= o: >>>> http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Jeff Whaley >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing >>>>=20 >>>> Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would li= ke to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. Anyw= ay at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right ch= oices. >>>>=20 >>>> Jeff >>>>=20 >>>> (Rebuilding my Ride) >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: David Leonard >>>> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing >>>> Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =09 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>> Sigh.. >>>>=20 >>>> Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500= agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 a= ircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I= did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big= problem.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass= arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually thoug= h it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of att= ention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it togethe= r for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quic= kly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitti= ng the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would hav= e gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but= no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. T= he farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive d= aughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the exc= itement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a cou= ple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as they all w= aived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for a ride). >>>>=20 >>>> Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very w= arm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from every= one all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they a= re trying to give me. >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> David Leonard >>>> This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for t= he addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any una= uthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this messa= ge in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our interna= l records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> David Leonard >>=20 >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> David Leonard >>=20 >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >=20 >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html >=20 >=20 > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html --Apple-Mail-AE3F926A-93E8-42BC-87DE-44DFEC37402D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Mark. S.  (and anyone= else with PP engine experience)

How did you end up= getting a usable MP signal for the EC2/3?    I have another coupl= e of builders who took Paul L's advice and used PP engines with slide thrott= le mounted right to the ports.   They are not having any luck getting a= stable MP using the oil injection ports on the rotor housing.   <= /div>

Did you ever come up with a good solution?

Thanks,
Tracy Crook

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Charlie, 

My system us= es those EFI filters also.  They are Fram p/n G3727.  They take a S= aginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic).  I don't recall where I pu= rchased my AN-Saginaw fittings.

Mark S.   

On Sun= , Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net= > wrote:
=20 =20 =20
I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline filter, with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the regulator. There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the only pic I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic.

Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy?

Charlie


On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:
So my next question is how small of filtration do we need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p= /Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

  Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls. = Lots of other brands I have  not explored yet.

I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.  Other opinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps.  OK, but very hard to implement on= RV wet-wing tanks.   I used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK and when it clogged,  switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it.   which is better than no fuel at= all but not an ideal solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, works great.   That was= a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel.  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.<= /div>

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any low side filters.  Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>= wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side  filter.   &n= bsp;So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogged?  ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure= drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.= htm
-= ---- Original Message -----
<= b>To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
<= b>Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM
<= b>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com&g= t;
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
3D"Message<= /a>

= 3D"Undecoded
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem.

On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for a ride).
=
Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me.

--
David Leonard
This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.






--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
htt= p://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://R= otaryRoster.net



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY= .RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRos= ter.net


--
Homepage:  http= ://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list= s/flyrotary/List.html


<Saginaw_2_AN.jpg>
= --Apple-Mail-AE3F926A-93E8-42BC-87DE-44DFEC37402D--