X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.144] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5694301 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Aug 2012 21:01:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.144; envelope-from=bktrub@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.141]) by imr-da02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q7610LI6002014 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:00:21 -0400 Received: from core-due002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-due002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.67.69]) by mtaomg-da05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 317C0E000087 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:00:21 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CF4185FCB7D564_1FD8_319A1_Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 36786-STANDARD Received: from 23.25.136.85 by Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com (64.12.224.207) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 05 Aug 2012 21:00:20 -0400 Message-Id: <8CF4185FCABEE84-1FD8-F033@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [23.25.136.85] Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:00:21 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1344214821; bh=yLO9NNOiS3lJ4Y1SWtNQjvngBHGHroVL4uT79/zee0A=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tS4V2sWOsIaBAO3i+ilAK6CBhVOWgzsbjQlAx0oLv/S0TvfHT37q2KblFj83qJ0ua +T24VQjpP1dssgnvXgmnKcHhXsxSzvB7o39A9K/lSPQm80bc7Ysd8ln6k0MeShk6k3 t5Xo0//JQejV0lwXLW8B8dORX/gkoLhACNjFmJgw= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:486470848:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 2 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338d501f1725301f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CF4185FCB7D564_1FD8_319A1_Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is what I am using- down to 7 micron filtration, with a water separato= r and drain: http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performance-Products/JEGS-Fuel-Fil= ter-Water-Separator/1171917/10002/-1 Brian Trubee RV-4 13 BREW ~ 50 hours so far.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Charlie England To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing Forgot to add, they are relatively inexpensive. But they are welded shut; y= ou can't inspect the filter elements without destroying them. Charlie (note new email address) On 08/05/2012 07:16 PM, Charlie England wrote:=20 I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter configur= ation: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline filter, with the = outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the regulator. There are= AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the only pic I could f= ind. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic. Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy? Charlie On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:=20 So my next question is how small of filtration do we need? ie, what is the= size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily? I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also coul= d use the SS screen version at 85 mic. The Peterson in line 600 series is = MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens. http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filte= rs/1528539/10002/-1 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retrofit, = and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls. Lots of other brand= s I have not explored yet. I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability. Other opinions? Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of = area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, but very= hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator for low side= filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching on the backup = pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass = it. which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, wor= ks great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a= filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up in about about 5 = hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side filters. Woul= d be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filte= rs that Al mentions. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. So for the rec= ord, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? = ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same= fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material = you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk o= f vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.=20 =20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oreg= on Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would like t= o say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. Anyway = at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right choi= ces. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) =20 From: David Leonard Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl= when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 air= craft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I = did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big= problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arr= ival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though i= t was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of atten= tion because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together= for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quic= kly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitt= ing the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would h= ave gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half = but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and crann= y. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attrac= tive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. With= in a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as = they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for = a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm = reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone= all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they ar= e trying to give me. --=20 David Leonard This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net =20 -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml ----------MB_8CF4185FCB7D564_1FD8_319A1_Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
This is what I am using- down to 7 micron filtration, with a water sep= arator and drain:  http://www.jegs.= com/p/JEGS-Performance-Products/JEGS-Fuel-Filter-Water-Separator/1171917/10= 002/-1
 
Brian Trubee
RV-4 13 BREW ~ 50 hours so far.


= -----Original Message-----
From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 5:21 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

Forgot to add, = they are relatively inexpensive. But they are welded shut; you can't inspec= t the filter elements without destroying them.

Charlie
(note new email address)


On 08/05/2012 07:16 PM, Charlie England wrote:=20
I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed = Anderson's filter configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate G= M inline filter, with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to fee= d the regulator. There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached= is the only pic I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic.

Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy?

Charlie


On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:=20
So my next question is how small of filtration do= we need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit through th= e injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also coul= d use the SS screen version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 serie= s is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Peter= son-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

  Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retro= fit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.  Lots of o= ther brands I have  not explored yet.

I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.  Other opinion= s?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com= > wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10= sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks Tracy= .

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>= wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps.  OK= , but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks.   I used a gascolat= or for low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK and when it clogged,  = ;switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to coll= apse and let fuel bypass it.   which is better than no fuel at all but= not an ideal solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TONS of filter= area, works great.   That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fue= l filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel.  It clogged = up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any low side filt= ers.  Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof= low side filters that Al mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotar= yRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.ne= t

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side  filter.   =  So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side fi= lter that clogged?  ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing= high side but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using= same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign mate= rial you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, = so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oreg= on
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http:/= /www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38= PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forc= ed Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would l= ike to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage.&nbs= p; Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the = right choices.
Jeff
(Rebuilding my Ride)
 
<= /TBODY>
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmai= l.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 3D"Message=

3D"Undecoded
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl= when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 air= craft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I = did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big= problem.

On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arr= ival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though i= t was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of atten= tion because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together= for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quic= kly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitt= ing the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would h= ave gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half = but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and crann= y. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attrac= tive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. With= in a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as = they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for = a ride).

Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm = reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone= all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they ar= e trying to give me.

--
David Leonard
This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.
=






--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotar= yRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.ne= t



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rotar= yRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.ne= t



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.=
lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

----------MB_8CF4185FCB7D564_1FD8_319A1_Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com--