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From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Poisoned Gasoline? : [FlyRotary] Re: MSD coils - Plug Fouling... again.
Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 18:40:58 -0400
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I don't know if you recall Leon from down under (since deceased).  But, 
early on I had a similar problem with my rotary.
 Since I was breaking in a new/rebuilt engine I was liberal with the 2 cycle 
oil.  Engine would act similar, would act like it was trying to start - 
would dump excess fuel through the exhaust (plugs up), but just would not 
run.  Leon told me I might have "poisoned" the gasoline with too much oil.

Well, I must admit I did not think much of that theory at the moment, but 
having tried everything else I could think of.  I drain the old gasoline and 
put in new - the engine fried right up.  Again and to this day, I still have 
a hard time believing that was the cause - but, could not figure out what 
else it might have been.

Good luck, Ernest

Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ernest Christley" <echristley@att.net>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:53 AM
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: MSD coils - Plug Fouling... again.

> The post below is six years old, but still valuable, I think.
>
> I can't get this thing to start.  I pull the plugs and they're soaking 
> wet.  The trailing (top) plugs much worse than
> the leading.  I used a small butane torch to burn off the wet stuff. 
> You'd think gas would POOF and burn right off as
> soon as the flame came near.   This stuff would barely burn at all.  Like 
> trying to light wet wood.
>
> I put the plugs back in, and turn it over and over.  It acted like it was 
> trying to start once or twice, but would never
> catch on and run.  Pull the plugs, and they're soaking wet again.
>
> Could 5 month old gasoline really be this bad?  At this point, I'm 
> thinking I should just drain the tank and start with
> fresh fuel.
>
> The question I have is whether the plugs will need to be replaced, or will 
> they be fine once I have fuel in there that
> will actually burn?
>
>
> On 12/08/2006 07:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 12/7/2006 9:37:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
>> lors01@msn.com writes:
>>
>>     If the MSD coils are plug-in replacements for the stock LS1 coils 
>> they will work with the EC2 as-is.  Having said
> that, I doubt that they would help with flooded engine problems.
>>
>>     I'm running the Renesis coils on my 20B and not having any problems 
>> so far.  The LS1 coils on my 13B Renesis have
> performed well and I have not had a flooded engine problem in the last 9 
> years.
>>
>>     I changed my plugs to iridium type (stock Renesis parts) about 210 
>> hours ago and they have been wonderful.  Never
> a hint of 'SAG' but I have run only a few tanks of 100LL during that time.
>>
>>     Proper priming and starting procedures are the keys to easy starting 
>> and avoidance of carbon fouling.
>>
>>     Tracy (sending Blue Mountain EFIS back for updates)
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep saying that to yourself.
>> Proper priming and starting procedures are key to easy starting and 
>> avoidance of carbon fouling.
>>
>> The Renesis engine does not have the self purging feature of the earlier 
>> 13B with the peripheral exhaust ports. So it
> can be stopped cold (pun) by an over rich starting attempt. It will 
> reapply liquid fuel to the spark plugs with each
> passing apex seal. Mazda had to re burn all of the Proms to help (but not 
> cure) this problem. So there is a mechanical
> layout problem involved in the hard starting, that owners of older 13B's 
> and 12As just have never seen or had to deal with.
>>
>> The early cars had a small container on the firewall that was filled with 
>> antifreeze. When temps were cold enough, a
> spray of antifreeze would go into the engine during cranking to remove 
> frost that tends to form on the surfaces and lock
> the seals into the rotors. This would reduce the compression to zero and 
> make starting impossible. The antifreeze would
> also add volume to the chamber to increase effective compression and help 
> seal around the stuck seals.
>>
>> In carburetted cars just pumping the gas pedal would cure this problem, 
>> and the peripheral exhaust port would dump out
> the excess fuel and frost as each apex seal went by.
>>
>> Those engines had a one piece 9MM carbon apex seal, and that seal ran 
>> about .004" to.005" of end clearance, so as not
> to bind up when it was up to temperature. But that gap and some sloppy end 
> clearance on the side seals assured that
> winter starting was a hit or miss project at best.
>>
>> With the modern 2 piece apex seals this is far less a problem, as the 
>> corner piece keeps the apex seal pretty much the
> right length (zero end clearance) all of the time,
>>
>> or it was, until the exhaust port was mounted up into the side of the 
>> irons instead of on the peripheral housing where
> it should be.
>>
>> When I first raced (I called it raced, It was just driving around fast) 
>> an RX-2 Mazda with a stock junk yard engine
> with no compression, it could be started by inserting an extra battery in 
> the starter motor circuit to spin up the
> engine extra fast to shorten the leak time, or by push starting the car in 
> first gear to do the same thing.
>>
>> We used to run a race called the Great Pumpkin up near Akron Ohio and at 
>> times there would be snow on the ground. The
> starting problem was profound indeed. I poured in a cup of hot coffee and 
> squirted motor oil into the carb before
> attempting to start the engine. It drew quite a crowd and better yet, it 
> worked every time. There was a large smoking
> problem for a while after startup (Like a big radial) but we got to race, 
> and were very happy.
>>
>> All of this was with the stock (Lame) points style (Kettering) ignition 
>> system. We could get up to 9,000 RPM with
> points. Plugs were gapped to .012" because secondary voltage was way down, 
> and misfires were common with bigger gaps.
>>
>> If you are having trouble starting your rotary, in cold weather, or on 
>> cool humid mornings, you are in a big club.
> Clean and properly sized conductors in the starting circuit are a must, 
> for the highest possible cranking speed. If the
> engine has been overdosed with fuel, shut off the fuel and crank with the 
> throttle full open.
>>
>> Do not do this from outside the plane.
>>
>> Do this from inside the plane with feet on the brakes and full up 
>> elevator, unless it is on the wrong end, in which
> case full down elevator. Tie the tail to a fixed object. Because the 
> engine makes best power at full throttle, and once
> it blows out the excess fuel it will start from sort of a dead quiet to a 
> scream and jump those little tiny chocks you
> made, and rocket down the flight line into my plane or Tracy's plane.
>>
>> In any case this works for the Renesis but it takes a good long time 
>> because of the exhaust port placement. The fuel
> wetted plugs will dry out if you have enough battery. A clean dry set 
> might get you going faster. A few blades with no
> fuel at all might get some heat of compression into the cold iron parts 
> before the chilling effect of the fuel mist wets
> the plugs.
>>
>> Do not spray any kind of starting fluids meant to start diesels into a 
>> rotary. It is conductive and shorts the plugs
> worse than water. WD-40 used to work great. It was an explosive fog and 
> helped sealing as well, but they made it much
> safer now and it is nearly useless.
>>
>> If there is to be a high energy system added to the aircraft engine, I 
>> would add it to the trailing plugs only until
> the system is proven with many hours of service. You can fail the trailing 
> system and loose very little power.
>>
>> You will know immediately if you loose the leading system.
>>
>> But the high energy system would still help with starting and fuel burn, 
>> and you would still have two independent systems.
>>
>> If Tracy's system mimics the Kettering system, it is likely that it could 
>> be used to trigger an after market high
> energy system with no problem. Otherwise, a transformer or shunt of some 
> kind may be required to prevent damage to his
> system. Ask Tracy.
>>
>> This advice may be worth what its costing you.
>>
>> Lynn E. Hanover
>>
>>
>
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