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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:01:11 -0500
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: top oil and apex seals.
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Lynn,

I had considered carrying a 2-3 gallon plastic jug to premix the fuel
better than just dumping it into the wing.  I guess it is warranted, but I
don't really like the idea of carrying a gas can in the cargo area.
 However, it seems a reasonable solution.

I'm trying to figure out which OMP adapter to use on my 20B.  It appears to
be the same as the 13b electric as shown on the RWS web site.  I like the
idea of depositing 2-stroke oil right in the middle of the apex seal as
this is a p-port intake/exhaust engine.  I still plan to add 2-stroke to
the fuel, just not as much as before, maybe 1/2 oz/gallon.

Mark

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:34 AM, <Lehanover@aol.com> wrote:

> **
> Interesting idea that top oil injection. The ideal method of delivery is
> to premix the oil with the fuel. That way the apex seals, corner seals,
> side seals and oil scrapers get uniform and continuous lubrication. In the
> periphery exhaust ported engine this is most important for the center of
> the apex seal when the seal opens the port and exhaust gasses remove the
> oil film and then super heat the center of the apex seal.
> The oil film on the rotor housing face cools the seal as it continues it's
> circuit.
>
> In the later Renesis engines (with side exhaust ports) the side seals are
> at risk in a similar manor. One method to assure thorough mixing of oil and
> fuel is to mix all of the oil for one fuel tank in a gallon jug with just
> under a gallon of fuel and dump that in just before that tank is full. The
> oil and fuel mixture will disperse very well. Works just fine.
>
> The one ounce per gallon mixture is for racing engines working above 9,000
> RPM. And since the aircraft engine duty cycle is actually more severe than
> that of a racing engine, it would seem as though a similar mixture would be
> required. Probably close to accurate. However, some racers use only 1/2
> ounce per gallon and they go as fast or faster than my racer. If you have
> new oil scrapers then use more top oil. If you rebuilt with old oil
> scrapers or didn't rebuild at all you can use less top oil, as the old oil
> scrapers will let some crank case oil out onto the irons
> and lubrication is achieved. On old smoky engines it is the warn out
> scrapers providing the excessive crank case oil for the smoke.
>
> Item of interest. It takes a long time to abuse the apex seals to death
> (In non turbo installations) If you notice that you have no oil in your
> fire wall mounted bottle some morning, just fill it up and go. Make a note
> for a hot compression check soon.
>
> Some Mazdas have run for years with no OMP operating and still have good
> compression. (Mr Hanover could you look at my car?) It has been smoking).
>  (OMP minus plastic lines peeing oil on my shop floor)
>
>  Yes I will. Might I ask who was President the last time this hood was
> opened?
>
> If you use the OMP, feed it 2 cycle oil from a bottle on the fire wall.
> Crank case oil is designed not to burn. So, most of it does not burn as
> expected. This cokes up the rotor and sticks seals in their grooves from
> the remains of unburned crank case oil. Use the synthetic crank case oil in
> the crank case, and an ash free 2 cycle oil in the OMP. Mazda had a rule
> against using synthetics in their engines because they do not burn at all,
> and when the OMP puts it into the rotor housings, it just gums up the rotor
> housings and sticks the apex seals. So it's not just a good idea, it's the
> LAW.
>
> Note 2. Racing synthetics have the highest film strengths and more
> antis-scuff and anti foaming additives. (The rotor cooling oil gets full of
> foam in normal operation and produces slightly lower oil pressure and
> slightly higher oil temperatures, as air in the foam is an insulator and
> defeats the oil coolers to some degree).
>
> When I open one of my engines, I see the side seals and corner seals and
> their springs sitting on the iron after I lift off the rotors. This is what
> you will see when you premix and, or, feed the OMP an ashless 2 cycle
> oil.  I do not have to dig the seals out of the rotors with various little
> tools, as is the case with a used street engine that is fed crank case oil.
>
> Lynn E. Hanover
>
>
>  In a message dated 4/10/2012 8:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> msteitle@gmail.com writes:
>
> Bill,
>
> It is just a SWAG on the cause of the damage to the apex seals.  They
> didn't break, but they had deep scratches across the wear face.  Tracy
> thinks it could have been foreign matter, but couldn't say for sure.  I
> can't recall any time the engine was run without an air filter.  So, I
> don't know how/when debris could have gotten into the engine.
>
> You may be correct in that I could be trying to solve a non-problem with
> the oil-fuel mix.  But, logic tells me that the ribs in the Lancair fuel
> tanks don't help to mix up the oil, especially if you pour the oil in
> first, then add fuel.  All of the oil will end up inboard due to the
> dihedral of the wings.  I wish I had thought to run the fuel return line to
> the outer most fuel bay.  That would have helped to mix the oil/fuel.  Too
> late for that now.
>
> Also, it seems that we're wasting most of the 2-stroke by having it mixed
> in with the fuel.  Not that it doesn't help, but by injecting the oil
> through the rotor housing, you're putting the oil right on the apex seal
> where it is most needed.  Mazda engineers knew what they were doing here.
>
> (I'll respond to the TB question in a separate post.)
>
> Mark
>
>

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Lynn,=A0<div><br></div><div>I had considered carrying a 2-3 gallon plastic =
jug to premix the fuel better than just dumping it into the wing. =A0I gues=
s it is warranted, but I don&#39;t really like the idea of carrying a gas c=
an in the cargo area. =A0However, it seems a reasonable solution. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m trying to figure out which OMP adapter to use o=
n my 20B. =A0It appears to be the same as the 13b electric as shown on the =
RWS web site. =A0I like the idea of depositing 2-stroke oil right in the mi=
ddle of the apex seal as this is a p-port intake/exhaust engine. =A0I still=
 plan to add 2-stroke to the fuel, just not as much as before, maybe 1/2 oz=
/gallon. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Mark</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, A=
pr 10, 2012 at 11:34 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Lehanover=
@aol.com">Lehanover@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">
<u></u>


<div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial"><font color=3D"#000000" siz=
e=3D"3" face=3D"Arial">
<div>Interesting idea that top oil injection. The ideal method of delivery =
is to=20
premix the oil with the fuel. That way the apex seals, corner seals, side s=
eals=20
and oil scrapers get uniform and continuous lubrication.=A0In the periphery=
=20
exhaust ported engine this is most important for the center of the apex sea=
l=20
when the seal opens the port and exhaust gasses remove the oil film and the=
n=20
super heat the center of the apex seal.</div>
<div>The oil film on the rotor housing face cools the seal as it continues =
it&#39;s=20
circuit.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>In the later Renesis engines (with side exhaust ports) the side seals =
are=20
at risk in a similar manor. One method to assure thorough mixing of oil and=
 fuel=20
is to mix all of the oil for one fuel tank in a gallon jug with just under =
a=20
gallon of fuel and dump that in just before that tank is full. The oil and =
fuel=20
mixture will disperse very well. Works just fine. </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>The one ounce per gallon mixture is for racing engines working above 9=
,000=20
RPM. And since the aircraft engine duty cycle is actually more severe than =
that=20
of a racing engine, it would seem as though a similar mixture would be requ=
ired.=20
Probably close to accurate. However, some racers use only 1/2 ounce per gal=
lon=20
and they go as fast or faster than my racer. If you have new oil scrapers t=
hen=20
use more top oil. If you rebuilt with old oil scrapers or didn&#39;t rebuil=
d at all=20
you can use less top oil, as the old oil scrapers will let some crank case =
oil=20
out onto the irons</div>
<div>and lubrication is achieved. On old smoky engines it is the warn out=
=20
scrapers providing the excessive crank case oil for the smoke.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Item of interest. It takes a long time to abuse the apex seals to=20
death</div>
<div>(In non turbo installations) If you notice that you have no oil in you=
r=20
fire wall mounted bottle some morning, just fill it up and go. Make a note =
for a=20
hot compression check soon. =A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Some Mazdas have run for years with no OMP operating and still have go=
od=20
compression. (Mr Hanover could you look at my car?) It has been smoking).=
=20
=A0(OMP minus plastic lines peeing oil on my shop floor) </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0Yes I will. Might I ask who was President the last time this hood w=
as=20
opened?=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>If you use the OMP, feed it 2 cycle oil from a bottle on the fire wall=
.=20
Crank case oil is designed not to burn. So, most of it does not burn as=20
expected. This cokes up the rotor and sticks seals in their grooves from th=
e=20
remains of unburned crank case oil. Use the synthetic crank case oil in the=
=20
crank case, and an ash free=A02 cycle oil in the OMP. Mazda had a rule=20
against using synthetics in their engines because they do not burn at all, =
and=20
when the OMP puts it into the rotor housings, it just gums up the rotor hou=
sings=20
and sticks the apex seals. So it&#39;s not just a good idea, it&#39;s the L=
AW.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Note 2. Racing synthetics have the highest film strengths and more=20
antis-scuff and anti foaming additives. (The rotor cooling oil gets full of=
 foam=20
in normal operation and produces slightly lower oil pressure and slightly h=
igher=20
oil temperatures, as air in the foam is an insulator and defeats the oil co=
olers=20
to some degree). =A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>When I open one of my engines, I see the side seals and corner seals a=
nd=20
their springs sitting on the iron after I lift off the rotors. This is what=
 you=20
will see when you premix and, or, feed the OMP an ashless 2 cycle=20
oil.=A0=A0I do not have to dig the seals out of the rotors with various=20
little tools, as is the case with a used street engine that is fed crank ca=
se=20
oil. </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Lynn E. Hanover</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 4/10/2012 8:30:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20
<a href=3D"mailto:msteitle@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">msteitle@gmail.com<=
/a> writes:</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:blue 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEF=
T:5px"><font style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:transparent" color=3D"#000000" size=
=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">Bill,=A0=20
  <div><br></div>
  <div>It is just a SWAG on the cause of the damage to the apex seals.=20
  =A0They didn&#39;t break, but they had deep scratches across the wear fac=
e.=20
  =A0Tracy thinks it could have been foreign matter, but couldn&#39;t say f=
or=20
  sure. =A0I can&#39;t recall any time the engine was run without an air fi=
lter.=20
  =A0So, I don&#39;t know how/when debris could have gotten into the=20
engine.</div>
  <div><br></div>
  <div>You may be correct in that I could be trying to solve a non-problem =
with=20
  the oil-fuel mix. =A0But, logic tells me that the ribs in the Lancair fue=
l=20
  tanks don&#39;t help to mix up the oil, especially if you pour the oil in=
 first,=20
  then add fuel. =A0All of the oil will end up inboard due to the dihedral =
of=20
  the wings. =A0I wish I had thought to run the fuel return line to the out=
er=20
  most fuel bay. =A0That would have helped to mix the oil/fuel. =A0Too=20
  late for that now.</div>
  <div><br></div>
  <div>Also, it seems that we&#39;re wasting most of the 2-stroke by having=
 it mixed=20
  in with the fuel. =A0Not that it doesn&#39;t help, but by injecting the o=
il=20
  through the rotor housing, you&#39;re putting the oil right on the apex s=
eal where=20
  it is most needed. =A0Mazda engineers knew what they were doing=20
  here.<br><br>(I&#39;ll respond to the TB question in a separate post.)=20
=A0</div>
  <div><br></div>
  <div>Mark<br></div></font></blockquote></div></font></div></blockquote></=
div><br></div>

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