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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing
From: Steve Thomas <glasair2@me.com>
In-reply-to: <list-5474396@logan.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:00:20 -0700
Message-id: <24FC69C8-8A54-4D2F-8927-ED16AB367FC1@me.com>
References: <list-5474396@logan.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Speaking of the Ethanol vs. other additives discussion, I have some information.  This is certainly not conclusive, but an anecdotal data point.  I built a Glasair.  The Glasair construction uses a vinyl-ester resin system, specifically a Derakane formulation that is listed on their website as being resistant to gasohol up to a 10% ethanol concentration.  

However, I ran some tests on some witness samples of the original kit material supplied from the factory as well as from my own layups.  I tested witness samples in a gasohol formulation from my local gas station, which was 4.5% ethanol.  I also tested samples in a jar with Jack Daniels (I know, what a waste!)  The samples developed a coating on the bare, cured fiberglass surface that was white, sticky, and scraped off easily with a popsicle stick.  This sticky substance showed up on both the gasohol and jack samples.  

Then I scraped off as much of the sticky goo as I could and put the samples in a fresh solution of both varieties.  After that initial surface contamination was cleaned, no more showed up.  

Clearly, ethanol was a culprit.  Whether or not it is the only culprit, I cannot say.  Also, there was something about the original surface of the cured resin that was different from the underlying cured resin.  The thickness of the residue was very small.  If you are going to use the OMP (which I do) beware of ethanol.  

The epoxy resin that folks have used is considerably different, as I understand the reports, with some of them completely dissolving in the presence of ethanol.  But, I'll leave that up to those folks to describe.  

My bottom line - if you have a glass fuel tank, never, never, never use a gas formulation that has any ethanol at all.  Ever!  Thanks to our wiser-than-everyone government bureaucrats for screwing up everything around here.  And if the situation ever develops where ethanol is added to avgas, we're screwed.  

Best Regards,

Steve Thomas

_______________________________________________________


On Apr 9, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Mark Steitle wrote:

> Tracy,
> 
> Yes, I had heard about that too.  Something to think about for
> everyone running mogas.  Leave it to the beaurocrats to really foul
> things up.
> 
> I may end up getting  another fuel trailer, pump 100LL into the
> trailer, drive around to mix up the oil, then pump it into the a/c.
> 
> Another option I was thinking was that it may be possible to utilize
> the capacitive fuel probes as a way to circulate the fuel in the tanks
> in order to mix up the oil.  The probes run all the way from the inner
> most bulkhead to the outer fuel bay.  But if I'm not careful, that may
> result in a big explosion!  I think I prefer the OMP option best.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I understand why that would motivate you to go OMP Mark!
>> 
>> Not that I know the bottom line truth to the auto fuel/ fiberglass
>> nightmares that have struck so many builders lately but the latest theory I
>> heard is that it is not the Ethanol that is eating the tanks but the much
>> advertised fuel injector / valve cleaner additives that many oil companies
>> are putting in the gasoline.   Who knows?
>> 
>> Tracy
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:38 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Tracy,
>>> 
>>> OK, here's the rest of the story...
>>> 
>>> I have come to believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have been
>>> partly responsible for the damage to my apex seals.  Lancair uses a
>>> wet wing and there are ribs forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing.
>>> The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from section to
>>> section.  Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel trailer
>>> and would add 2-stroke when filling.  It would be well mixed by the
>>> time I pumped it into my a/c tanks.  I was forced to switch to 100LL
>>> when the beaurocrats started blending ethanol in all auto fuels
>>> (ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives).  I now have to
>>> fuel at the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke into
>>> the wing as I pump the fuel.  This isn't easy to do and I seldom
>>> finish pouring the oil at the same time the tank is reaching full.
>>> Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect I suspect
>>> it still didn't mix thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks.  I can't
>>> figure a way to get the fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to switch
>>> over to the OMP system.
>>> 
>>> Maybe the answer is to do both.  I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) and
>>> also add some additional 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks.
>>> Not perfect, but much better than the alternative.
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the Mazda oil
>>>> injection
>>>> system.   I only remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B from
>>>> disassembling so many of them.   Only 2 of the ports (secondaries I
>>>> believe)
>>>> got the oil lines so only 4 needed.    Don't think I've ever seen a 20B
>>>> OMP
>>>> setup  (my 20B engine was built from new parts).   I can't imagine why
>>>> there
>>>> are 4 lines on a 20B setup.   I think there are only 2 lines used on 3rd
>>>> gen
>>>> 13Bs.  Only the rotor housings are fed, not the manifold.   Since the 20B
>>>> is
>>>> essentially a 3rd gen engine,  I would have thought it would have a
>>>> similar
>>>> setup with 3 lines (one to each rotor housing).
>>>> 
>>>> I'm still of the opinion that you can't do better (from a functional
>>>> standpoint) than premixing the oil so I've never played with the
>>>> injection.
>>>> It just isn't practical for most people in car use.   That's why 95%+ of
>>>> OMP
>>>> adapters are purchased by car guys.
>>>> 
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> PS:   I thought I sent that updated EC2 installation guide to you before
>>>> I
>>>> left home (I'm in Colorado until early May)   The main difference from
>>>> last
>>>> one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when running on A
>>>> controller.
>>>> When using B, only B is affected by programming changes.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Tracy,
>>>>> 
>>>>> How should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor.  From your
>>>>> explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per rotor)?  Even the
>>>>> 20b OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into three
>>>>> separate lines?  Do you know of anyplace where I could read about how
>>>>> OMPs are connected from the factory?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> P.S.  Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 manual?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Two into the rotor housings, two into the intake manifold just upstream
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the ports in the block.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Steve, that's why I'm asking the experts on this.  I'm still trying to
>>>>>>> figure this out.  The older 13b OMP has 4 ports.  So did the 20B OMP,
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> only three lines.  I was planning on not using the 4th port.  Where
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> the 4th line go to on the 13b setup?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Since the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil lines and intended
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> two rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the three rotor
>>>>>>> engine
>>>>>>> in terms of amount of oil metered and how it is distributed?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Mark Steitle
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is anyone running an oil metering pump (OMP) that can help me figure
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>> how the lines should be connected.  I'm planning on using the Mazda
>>>>>>>>> banjo fittings to hook up to the OMP, but what do I do with the
>>>>>>>>> check
>>>>>>>>> valves.  Do you connect the check valves to a vacuum source or just
>>>>>>>>> block them off?  Will the system work properly if I plug the check
>>>>>>>>> valves?  I plan on locking the lever in the full open position.
>>>>>>>>> Will
>>>>>>>>> this work for a/c use?  I'll be using Richard Sohn's adapter with a
>>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>> gallon reservoir filled with 2-stroke oil.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Mark S.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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>>>> 
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>>> 
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> 
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