X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5474395 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:51:34 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.70; envelope-from=n360tg@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MngUeZslGgz94pQSJS8Czh/zJTOnkPBkMOf9Qcos1H5a7oCT2CgtFXIP0ojyyTg3; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [173.163.220.153] (helo=[192.168.6.62]) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1SHJg3-0008Ij-I0 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:51:00 -0400 From: Thomas Giddings Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-14--792026679 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 14:50:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Message-Id: <4CA18E2D-D15F-4CC8-8CFD-1F3E916F124A@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 77b0437ff618fec294f5150ab1c16ac07c540ca440b21de70796e57ba87097cf7deb82d2acd74041350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 173.163.220.153 --Apple-Mail-14--792026679 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am curious if you folks think auto fuel can cause problems with = aluminum tanks and sealer. KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Apr 9, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Tracy wrote: > I understand why that would motivate you to go OMP Mark! >=20 > Not that I know the bottom line truth to the auto fuel/ fiberglass = nightmares that have struck so many builders lately but the latest = theory I heard is that it is not the Ethanol that is eating the tanks = but the much advertised fuel injector / valve cleaner additives that = many oil companies are putting in the gasoline. Who knows? >=20 > Tracy > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:38 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >=20 >> Tracy, >>=20 >> OK, here's the rest of the story... >>=20 >> I have come to believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have = been >> partly responsible for the damage to my apex seals. Lancair uses a >> wet wing and there are ribs forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing. >> The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from section to >> section. Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel trailer >> and would add 2-stroke when filling. It would be well mixed by the >> time I pumped it into my a/c tanks. I was forced to switch to 100LL >> when the beaurocrats started blending ethanol in all auto fuels >> (ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives). I now have to >> fuel at the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke into >> the wing as I pump the fuel. This isn't easy to do and I seldom >> finish pouring the oil at the same time the tank is reaching full. >> Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect I suspect >> it still didn't mix thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks. I can't >> figure a way to get the fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to switch >> over to the OMP system. >>=20 >> Maybe the answer is to do both. I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) and >> also add some additional 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks. >> Not perfect, but much better than the alternative. >>=20 >> Mark >>=20 >>=20 >> On 4/9/12, Tracy wrote: >>> Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the Mazda oil = injection >>> system. I only remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B from >>> disassembling so many of them. Only 2 of the ports (secondaries I = believe) >>> got the oil lines so only 4 needed. Don't think I've ever seen a = 20B OMP >>> setup (my 20B engine was built from new parts). I can't imagine = why there >>> are 4 lines on a 20B setup. I think there are only 2 lines used on = 3rd gen >>> 13Bs. Only the rotor housings are fed, not the manifold. Since = the 20B is >>> essentially a 3rd gen engine, I would have thought it would have a = similar >>> setup with 3 lines (one to each rotor housing). >>>=20 >>> I'm still of the opinion that you can't do better (from a functional >>> standpoint) than premixing the oil so I've never played with the = injection. >>> It just isn't practical for most people in car use. That's why = 95%+ of OMP >>> adapters are purchased by car guys. >>>=20 >>> Tracy >>>=20 >>> PS: I thought I sent that updated EC2 installation guide to you = before I >>> left home (I'm in Colorado until early May) The main difference = from last >>> one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when running on A = controller. >>> When using B, only B is affected by programming changes. >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Tracy, >>>>=20 >>>> How should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor. =46rom your >>>> explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per rotor)? Even = the >>>> 20b OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into three >>>> separate lines? Do you know of anyplace where I could read about = how >>>> OMPs are connected from the factory? >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>> Mark >>>>=20 >>>> P.S. Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 manual? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 4/9/12, Tracy wrote: >>>>> Two into the rotor housings, two into the intake manifold just = upstream >>>>> of >>>>> the ports in the block. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Tracy >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Steve, that's why I'm asking the experts on this. I'm still = trying to >>>>>> figure this out. The older 13b OMP has 4 ports. So did the 20B = OMP, >>>>>> with >>>>>> only three lines. I was planning on not using the 4th port. = Where does >>>>>> the 4th line go to on the 13b setup? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Mark >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Steven W. Boese = wrote: >>>>>> Mark, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Since the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil lines and = intended for >>>>>> a >>>>>> two rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the three = rotor >>>>>> engine >>>>>> in terms of amount of oil metered and how it is distributed? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Steve >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: Mark Steitle >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM >>>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Is anyone running an oil metering pump (OMP) that can help me = figure >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>> how the lines should be connected. I'm planning on using the = Mazda >>>>>>>> banjo fittings to hook up to the OMP, but what do I do with the = check >>>>>>>> valves. Do you connect the check valves to a vacuum source or = just >>>>>>>> block them off? Will the system work properly if I plug the = check >>>>>>>> valves? I plan on locking the lever in the full open position. = Will >>>>>>>> this work for a/c use? I'll be using Richard Sohn's adapter = with a 1 >>>>>>>> gallon reservoir filled with 2-stroke oil. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Mark S. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --Apple-Mail-14--792026679 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I am = curious if you folks think auto fuel can cause problems with aluminum = tanks and sealer.
KIND = REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
72= 7 858 1772



On Apr 9, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Tracy wrote:

I = understand why that would motivate you to go OMP Mark!

Not that I = know the bottom line truth to the auto fuel/ fiberglass nightmares that = have struck so many builders lately but the latest theory I heard is = that it is not the Ethanol that is eating the tanks but the much = advertised fuel injector / valve cleaner additives that many oil = companies are putting in the gasoline.   Who = knows?

Tracy
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 9, 2012, at 12:38 = PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> = wrote:

Tracy,

OK, here's the = rest of the story...

I have come to = believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have = been
partly responsible for = the damage to my apex seals.  Lancair uses = a
wet wing and there are ribs = forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing.
The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from = section to
section. =  Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel = trailer
and would add 2-stroke = when filling.  It would be well mixed by = the
time I pumped it into my = a/c tanks.  I was forced to switch to = 100LL
when the beaurocrats = started blending ethanol in all auto fuels
(ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives). =  I now have to
fuel at = the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke = into
the wing as I pump the = fuel.  This isn't easy to do and I = seldom
finish pouring the oil = at the same time the tank is reaching full.
Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect = I suspect
it still didn't mix = thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks.  I = can't
figure a way to get the = fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to = switch
over to the OMP = system.

Maybe the = answer is to do both.  I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) = and
also add some additional = 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks.
Not perfect, but much better than the = alternative.

Mark


On 4/9/12, = Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the = Mazda oil injection
system.   I only = remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B = from
disassembling so many of them.   Only 2 of the = ports (secondaries I believe)
got the oil lines so only 4 = needed.    Don't think I've ever seen a 20B = OMP
setup  (my 20B engine was built from new parts). =   I can't imagine why = there
are 4 lines on a 20B setup.   I think there are = only 2 lines used on 3rd gen
13Bs.  Only the rotor = housings are fed, not the manifold.   Since the 20B = is
essentially a 3rd gen engine,  I would have thought = it would have a similar
setup with 3 lines (one to each = rotor housing).

I'm still of the opinion that = you can't do better (from a = functional
standpoint) than premixing the = oil so I've never played with the = injection.
It just isn't practical for most = people in car use.   That's why 95%+ of = OMP
adapters are purchased by car = guys.

Tracy

PS:   I thought I sent = that updated EC2 installation guide to you before = I
left home (I'm in Colorado until early May) =   The main difference from = last
one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when = running on A controller.
When using B, only B is = affected by programming = changes.

Sent from my = iPad

On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, = Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> = wrote:

Tracy,

How = should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor.  =46rom = your
explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per = rotor)?  Even = the
20b = OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into = three
separate= lines?  Do you know of anyplace where I could read about = how
OMPs = are connected from the = factory?

Thanks,
Mark

P.S. =  Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 = manual?


On = 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> = wrote:
Two into the rotor housings, two = into the intake manifold just = upstream
of
the ports in the = block.

Tracy

Sent from my = iPad

On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark = Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> = wrote:

Steve, = that's why I'm asking the experts on this.  I'm still trying = to
figure = this out.  The older 13b OMP has 4 ports.  So did the 20B = OMP,
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
with
=
only three lines.  I was = planning on not using the 4th port.  Where = does
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
the = 4th line go to on the 13b = setup?

Mark
=

On = Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu> = wrote:
Mark,



Since = the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil lines and intended = for
a
two = rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the three = rotor
=
engine
in terms of amount of oil = metered and how it is = distributed?



Steve



From: = Mark = Steitle

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 = 8:10 = PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP = Plumbing

Is anyone running an oil = metering pump (OMP) that can help me = figure
out
<= /blockquote>
how = the lines should be connected.  I'm planning on using the = Mazda
=
banjo fittings to hook up to the = OMP, but what do I do with the = check
=
valves.  Do you connect the = check valves to a vacuum source or = just
<= /blockquote>
block them off?  Will the = system work properly if I plug the = check
=
valves?  I plan on locking = the lever in the full open position. =  Will
this work for a/c use? =  I'll be using Richard Sohn's adapter with a = 1
gallon reservoir filled with = 2-stroke = oil.
<= /blockquote>

Mark = S.









--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:
http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
<= /blockquote>

--
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Archive and = UnSub:
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<= /blockquote>


--
Homepage: =  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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<= br>--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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= --Apple-Mail-14--792026679--