X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com ([209.85.212.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5452875 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:33:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.178; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wibhq7 with SMTP id hq7so1062479wib.7 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Cdw1N+zb2CBx9XYlb/cY0oxsfB2VyIlD+pwGjEu0YtM=; b=Q+/yzDtzzshRCt9LLsFDQ0ZM9oGs6IYtI40lpSNMq37ro8M7jQllnFyv42nsTph37A pMiU9xHaygCcNGRE692r78F2RzLb61yGfJVY+v+ygVdD4Gg+nKswVhDAFSq6rkHXWiql +PvrA9PA4j2Tw7vFUB09XhJyA6MEczD/1yOkPKtPKfxVFATV8fFnfFfrNFVHdCuTVh+/ k5Bhgi2RBtpuXvwviN3GSmcOQMNSMF4PmMZhKZ4rN1emc9jl1//c00cZBSbWcB8QoVPp r97mBFqfCOR+NiFOAieCJ53EiG/WXM+Rlm9pz3NFmF15WavBiSm6kRh9YyzsS4aSAjke nEcg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.100.2 with SMTP id eu2mr993785wib.1.1332451964933; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.104.13 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:32:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: #1 rotor cutting out From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044283d40cd69004bbdba689 --f46d044283d40cd69004bbdba689 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kelly, Yes, the slide throttle is history, mainly because, 1) I concluded that the location of the primary injectors being upstream from the slide was causing puddling of the fuel and surging, and hence poor low speed/idle characteristics, although this was not a problem at mid to WOT. I could have relocated the primary injectors but there were other issues as well (see 2 through 5) 2) I suspected cross-feed from one port to the next during low throttle operations, although I couldn't verify that was happening I felt it may be contributing to the rough operation mentioned above, 3) It dripped fuel upon shutdown, not a lot, but it caused me some concern, 4) the nature of the design prevented me from balancing the individual rotors, and 5) it required a modest force to operate; the new TB's are silk smooth. I located a triple-set of like-new 46mm 1 BBL throttle bodies from a Sea Doo or snowmobile that looked like would work with very little modification. It required a new throttle shaft to be fabricated since it was one piece and the spacing was wrong for the 20B, but Bob Darrah and his Bridgeport were happy to help me with that. I'm very happy with the end result. The nature of the p-port necessitated the TB's to be located very close to the ports, else I would have gone with a larger single TB feeding into an airbox like most have done. Not sure that wouldn't work here, but I've read that with the p-port engine the TB should be as close as possible to the ports. These TB's have the injector bungs cast into the body just downstream of the butterfly, exactly as I needed. Low end performance has improved considerably. I just need to figure out why the #1 rotor cuts out in mid-range. Mark S. On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:57 AM, wrote: > >> Yes, that change certainly did the trick. I've only flown once since due >> to weather, but the engine runs great. First thing I did after tuning A was >> to copy to B before flying. Now I'm re- doing the cooling air scoop so that >> it doesn't look like a hideous wart underneath the fuselage. The cooling >> system works great, but it was kludged together while trying to arrive at a >> workable configuration. >> Brian Trubee >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tracy >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:14 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: #1 rotor cutting out >> >> Sorry Mark, that came out a bit harsher than I intended! BTW, the current >> version of the EC2/3 software (since about two months ago) now programs both A & >> B when you tune A. You can still program B differently when running on B if >> desired as changes to B do not affect A. >> >> On your rotor 1 symptoms between 3800 and 5000, I was wondering if you still had >> the resistor between CAS and EC2 that you were using to try and make the Renesis >> CAS work. If so, you might try eliminating it since you are using the original >> CAS. That's one reason I was anxious to hear if B had the same symptom. >> >> Sounds like the CAS sensor circuit change I installed in (Brian's ?) EC2 13-BREW >> fixed the high rpm breakup problem so anyone having similar symptoms on BREW or >> Renesis engines using the EC2 should have that change too. >> >> Tracy >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Mar 21, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >> > Tracy, >> > >> > OUCH, that hurts! OK, here's the rest of the story. I've changed my >> > intake manifold and changed injector sizes, so I'm back to the tuning >> > phase. The B controller won't run right now as I haven't copied A to >> > B yet. I'll have to do that before I can try the B controller. >> > Thanks for reminding me that I typically do things the hard way. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > On 3/21/12, Tracy wrote: >> >> Trying the B controller should always be the FIRST thing to try since it is >> >> the easiest. This needs to be ingrained in all EC2/3 users mental (or >> >> preferably written) engine failure check list. Everything including the >> >> coil & injector drivers are swapped out when selecting B controller. Based >> >> on the number of time I have asked if the B controller was tried when called >> >> about an engine anomally I have concluded that very few builders are even >> >> aware it it there : ). >> >> >> >> Tracy >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> On Mar 21, 2012, at 3:58 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >> >> >>> I have been chasing a problem with my p-port 3-rotor where the #1 >> >>> rotor cuts out at around 3800 rpm, but comes back at around 5000 rpm. >> >>> When this happens, I can hear a change in the exhaust, and I see the >> >>> EGT on #1 drop way down to around 500*, so that's how I determined >> >>> that it was the #1 rotor. The other two rotors continue to run >> >>> normally. >> >>> >> >>> I have tried swapping coils, replacing the #1 rotor's plugs & coil >> >>> wires, and swapping injectors. I have not tried the B controller, but >> >>> that sounds like what I should try next. My suspicion is there may be >> >>> a defective coil driver circuit in the EC-2. I have borrowed another >> >>> 20B EC-2 to try, but won't be able to do the swap until this coming >> >>> weekend. >> >>> >> >>> Since things have been so quiet on the list, I thought I would post >> >>> this strange problem and see what suggestions others may have. >> >>> >> >>> Mark S. >> >> > > Mark, > Cannot quite make out exactly what you have done to your intake but it > appears you may have > done away with the slide throttle and added traditional throttle bodies > with primary injectors > after the throttle plates and secondary injectors before the throttle > plates ??.............I am sure > you will fill us all in if that is not correct (with more detailed > photos).................<:) > > > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > --f46d044283d40cd69004bbdba689 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly,=A0

Yes, the slide throttle is history, mainly bec= ause,=A0

1)=A0I concluded that=A0the location of t= he primary injectors being upstream from the slide was causing puddling of = the fuel and surging, and hence poor low speed/idle characteristics, althou= gh this was not a problem at mid to WOT. =A0I could have relocated the prim= ary injectors but there were other issues as well (see 2 through 5)

2) I suspected cross-feed from one port to the next dur= ing low throttle operations, although I couldn't verify that was happen= ing I felt it may be contributing to the rough operation mentioned above,= =A0

3) It dripped fuel upon shutdown, not a lot, but it cau= sed me some concern,

4) the nature of the design p= revented me from balancing the individual rotors, and=A0

5) it required a modest force to operate; the new TB's are silk sm= ooth. =A0

I located a triple-set of like-new 46mm = 1 BBL throttle bodies from a Sea Doo or snowmobile that looked like =A0woul= d work with very little modification. =A0It required a new throttle shaft t= o be fabricated since it was one piece and the spacing was wrong for the 20= B, but Bob Darrah and his Bridgeport were happy to help me with that. =A0I&= #39;m very happy with the end result. =A0

The nature of the p-port necessitated the TB's to b= e located very close to the ports, else I would have gone with a larger sin= gle TB feeding into an airbox like most have done. =A0Not sure that wouldn&= #39;t work here, but I've read that with the p-port engine the TB shoul= d be as close as possible to the ports. =A0These TB's have the injector= bungs cast into the body just downstream of the butterfly, exactly as I ne= eded. =A0Low end performance has improved considerably. =A0I just need to f= igure out why the #1 rotor cuts out in mid-range.

Mark S.



On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> w= rote:


On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:57 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Yes, that change certainly did the trick. I've only flown once sin= ce due to weather, but the engine runs great. First thing I did after tunin= g A was to copy to B before flying. Now I'm re- doing the cooling air s= coop so that it doesn't look like a hideous wart underneath the fuselag= e. The cooling system works great, but it was kludged together while trying= to arrive at a workable configuration.
Brian Trubee


-----Original Mes= sage-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Mar 22, 2012 6:14 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: #1 rotor cuttin= g out

Sorry Mark, that came out a bit =
harsher than I intended!   BTW,   the current=20
version of the EC2/3 software (since about two months ago) now programs bot=
h A &=20
B when you tune A.   You can still program B differently when running on B =
if=20
desired as changes to B do not affect A.  =20

On your rotor 1 symptoms between 3800 and 5000, I was wondering if you stil=
l had=20
the resistor between CAS and EC2 that you were using to try and make the Re=
nesis=20
CAS work.  If so, you might try eliminating it since you are using the orig=
inal=20
CAS.   That's one reason I was anxious to hear if B had the same sympto=
m.

Sounds like the CAS sensor circuit change I installed in (Brian's ?) EC=
2 13-BREW =20
fixed the high rpm breakup problem so anyone having similar symptoms on BRE=
W or=20
Renesis engines using the EC2 should have that change too.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 21, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

> Tracy,
>=20
> OUCH, that hurts!  OK, here's the rest of the story.  I've cha=
nged my
> intake manifold and changed injector sizes, so I'm back to the tun=
ing
> phase.  The B controller won't run right now as I haven't copi=
ed A to
> B yet.  I'll have to do that before I can try the B controller.
> Thanks for reminding me that I typically do things the hard way.
>=20
> Mark
>=20
> On 3/21/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Trying the B controller should always be the FIRST thing to try si=
nce it is
>> the easiest.   This needs to be ingrained in all EC2/3 users menta=
l (or
>> preferably written) engine failure check list.   Everything includ=
ing the
>> coil & injector drivers are swapped out when selecting B contr=
oller.   Based
>> on the number of time I have asked if the B controller was tried w=
hen called
>> about an engine anomally I have concluded that very few builders a=
re even
>> aware it it there : ).
>>=20
>> Tracy
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPad
>>=20
>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 3:58 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> I have been chasing a problem with my p-port 3-rotor where the=
 #1
>>> rotor cuts out at around 3800 rpm, but comes back at around 50=
00 rpm.
>>> When this happens, I can hear a change in the exhaust, and I s=
ee the
>>> EGT on #1 drop way down to around 500*, so that's how I de=
termined
>>> that it was the #1 rotor.  The other two rotors continue to ru=
n
>>> normally.
>>>=20
>>> I have tried swapping coils, replacing the #1 rotor's plug=
s & coil
>>> wires, and swapping injectors.  I have not tried the B control=
ler, but
>>> that sounds like what I should try next.  My suspicion is ther=
e may be
>>> a defective coil driver circuit in the EC-2.  I have borrowed =
another
>>> 20B EC-2 to try, but won't be able to do the swap until th=
is coming
>>> weekend.
>>>=20
>>> Since things have been so quiet on the list, I thought I would=
 post
>>> this strange problem and see what suggestions others may have.
>>>=20
>>> Mark S.
=A0
=A0
Mark,
=A0 Cannot quite make out exactly what you have done to your intake bu= t it appears you may have
done away with the slide throttle and added traditional throttle bodie= s with primary injectors
after the throttle plates and secondary injectors before the throttle = plates ??.............I am sure
you will fill us all in if that is not correct (with more detailed pho= tos).................<:)
=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_E= C2_EM2

--f46d044283d40cd69004bbdba689--