X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5447127 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:43:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by yhpp61 with SMTP id p61so7318144yhp.25 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 17:43:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=nj2SQsoxJQgp8YuMwvRxvGndQIp+AyX9pacGpKVYHXI=; b=WOye5TjUBpvCb0JO6yZnXB+mNB9KMoWlwEDSM2mEQERQRgpAe7RiA+V2Ru2PExF0iG 2osjT6FX60CpSVIG7g7bzsKDThGPr17Ab33SZothd6TNRy6WZ4KgIFQYe0hSB8Eq5LTO l4Njs7BBM2BO5ycBwOfFn6Yn5fr3NSPzTwrUz3BP8DAoG2yAyMhrgxP7ZSoL7asJlJ8+ mUBXVqiudp3kXmuBdfI27aDR3r3uUllwLOq2L0br2XKHSAhRhFG3JL85ciILBRHeZHuv hiItePX6FtWMW9t66v9s48VYqJ/lCG2hAKfX4doQEKLXSBkaiaTyePh7elYa7Pl4VFkY 1owg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.25.73 with SMTP id a9mr12274533oeg.63.1332117784796; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 17:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.165.67 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 17:43:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:43:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff256425c9f9804bb8dd79f --e89a8ff256425c9f9804bb8dd79f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 CRS is setting in !!.................Rechecked my records and I mis-spoke...........My TO4E-50 turbine is the F1-68 mm wheel................. Kelly Troyer On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > My Turbonetics TO4E-50 has the F1-65 turbine wheel but I chose the > really loose 1.15 a/r housing to avoid compressor > surge and over speed at hoped for relatively high altitude > cruising............. > > Kelly Troyer > > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > >> ** >> I understand, some decisions have to be made before you know all the >> factors. An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted to caution you if it >> was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small size for aircraft >> application - particularly if you do not have any active boost control. >> >> Ed >> >> *From:* shipchief@aol.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup >> >> Ed; >> While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, trying >> to recall what was in my 60-1 turbo. >> I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I was going >> to face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choices. The >> turbinescome in 2 sizes, F1-62 & F1-65. >> Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That's it for >> the F1-62 wheel. >> The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30. >> I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm >> thinking it's actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, and the >> median choice if I have the F1-65 wheel. >> Now I need to check. >> I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about sizing >> a turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman set me up >> for a 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with a tight >> engine cover.... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ed Anderson >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 6:41 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup >> >> I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio turbine housing. A >> small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - that "kick in the seat" >> sports car feel. However, at high rpm/power settings several things occur >> if no way of controlling the boost. >> >> 1. The small a/r will tend to overspeed the turbine - especially at >> altitude and can lead to surging. >> 2. The small a/r will produce a large amount of backpressure and heat >> from the turbine housing back to the engine - and add to your heat load >> - simply because it can not escape as readily as with an larger a/r. >> 3. The boost pressure may well exceed what your system is designed for >> 4. You will not produce as much HP at the higher rpm because the overall >> air mass flow will be less. >> >> Most have found that if using an uncontrolled turbocharger that an a/r >> around 1.0 produces better and safer results. With a Turbonetics 60--1, >> you should have no problem acquiring a turbine housing closer to 1.0 >> >> There are several good books around on turbocharger and a/r selection - >> might want to browse through a few. >> >> Good luck >> >> Ed >> >> *From:* shipchief@aol.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup >> >> Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum! >> I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST to >> the end of the runway and back. >> I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can't >> give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me that >> my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate >> or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??) >> Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I have >> done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the >> airport, I've been increasing the power output. >> I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil >> temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went for a >> few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water cool >> well at lower settings. >> I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate >> auxilliary equipment. >> I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and space >> constraints in the 'engine room'. >> I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don't >> have the nose gear version. >> I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed, >> but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove some >> layers to get to the core engine. >> Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !! >> I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand >> turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it >> up to 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are >> getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of >> time. >> I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too. >> The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as >> soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some >> faster taxi tests... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark McClure >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup >> >> I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I want the >> muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" which >> can be quite large when factoring in all the components. >> >> I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to have the >> boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and electronic >> flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at all >> flight regimes. >> >> What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two >> primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those only >> provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines have >> small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control >> units. Redundancy is the name of the game. >> >> So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 and >> EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics. of >> course the two will be redundant to each other. >> >> Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery and >> the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring. >> >> I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot of >> energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned there >> is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for something >> useful. >> >> Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a Turbo >> Normalized setup though. >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: >> >> > On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote: >> >> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but would like >> to set it for 3-5 psi boost. >> >> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, which are not >> always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle response >> (usually) and run at high % power continuously. >> >> >> >> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques: >> >> >> >> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R >> >> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot >> >> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher temp delta >> >> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate >> >> pressure before intake >> >> >> >> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost. >> >> >> >> What am I missing? >> >> >> > The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away? >> Though, like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane. It >> wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something. The two things that >> spring to my mind are: >> > 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator. The drawback is that you'll >> want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air through >> the radiator. >> > 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exhaust. >> As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of heat >> and sonic pounding. Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a slight >> amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right. >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --e89a8ff256425c9f9804bb8dd79f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0 CRS is setting in !!.................Rechecked my records and I= mis-spoke...........My TO4E-50 turbine is the F1-68 mm wheel..............= ...
=A0
=A0Kelly Troyer

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Kelly Troyer <= span dir=3D"ltr"><keltro@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 My Turbonetics TO4E-50 has the F1-65 turbine wheel but I chose the= really loose 1.15 a/r housing to avoid compressor
=A0surge and over speed at hoped for relatively high=A0altitude cruisi= ng.............
=A0
Kelly Troyer
=A0
=A0
=A0
On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
I understand, some decisions have to be made befo= re you know all the factors.=A0 An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted t= o caution you if it was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small = size for aircraft application - particularly if you do not have any active = boost control.
=A0
Ed

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup
<= /div>

Ed;
While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, tryin= g to recall what was in my 60-1 turbo.
I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I= was going to face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choice= s. The turbinescome in 2 sizes,=A0F1-62 & F1-65.
Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That&#= 39;s it for the F1-62 wheel.
The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30.
I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm think= ing=A0it's actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, and th= e median choice if I have the F1-65 wheel.
Now I need to check.
I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about= sizing a turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman set= me up for a 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with a tigh= t engine cover....=A0


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 6:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo char= ger setup

I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio = turbine housing.=A0 A small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - th= at "kick in the seat" sports car feel.=A0 However, at high rpm/po= wer settings several things occur if no way of controlling the boost.
=A0
1.=A0 The small a/r will tend to overspeed the tu= rbine - especially at altitude and can lead to surging.
2.=A0 The small a/r will produce a large amount o= f backpressure and heat from the turbine housing back to the engine - and a= dd to your heat load -=A0simply because it can not escape as readily as wit= h an larger a/r.
3.=A0 The boost pressure may well exceed what you= r system is designed for
4.=A0 You will not produce as much HP at the high= er rpm because the overall air mass flow will be less.
=A0
Most have found that if using an uncontrolled tur= bocharger that an a/r=A0 around 1.0 produces better and safer results.=A0 W= ith a Turbonetics 60--1, you should have no problem acquiring a turbine hou= sing closer to 1.0
=A0
There are several good books around on turbocharg= er and a/r selection - might want to browse through a few.
=A0
Good luck
=A0
Ed

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup
<= /div>

Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum!
I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI T= EST to the end of the runway and back.
I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I= can't give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum tol= d me that my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler,= wastegate or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??)
Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied=A0down as I = have done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the= airport, I've been increasing the power output.
I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM.= =A0The oil temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it= went for a few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and = water cool well at lower settings.
I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to ope= rate auxilliary equipment.
I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and= space constraints in the 'engine room'.
I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don= 't have the nose gear version.
I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if neede= d, but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove s= ome layers to get to the core engine.
Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !!
I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left h= and turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got= it up to 2280 RPM static. That seems=A0up to=A0200 RPM higher that RV'= s are getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained len= gth of time.
I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.
The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as= soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try som= e faster taxi tests...


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark McClure <markmcclure@me.com>
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger se= tup

I am planning on using the turbi=
ne of a turbo to spin a generator. I want the=20
muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo s=
etup" which=20
can be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20

I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to ha=
ve the=20
boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and elect=
ronic=20
flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at al=
l=20
flight regimes.

What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two=
=20
primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those =
only=20
provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines h=
ave=20
small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control=
=20
units. Redundancy is the name of the game.

So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 an=
d=20
EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics=
. of=20
course the two will be redundant to each other.=20

Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery a=
nd=20
the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring.=
=20

I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot =
of=20
energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned th=
ere=20
is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for somethin=
g=20
useful.

 Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a =
Turbo=20
Normalized setup though.

Mark


On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:

> On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, =
but would like=20
to set it for 3-5 psi boost.
>> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, wh=
ich are not=20
always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle res=
ponse=20
(usually) and run at high % power continuously.
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques:
>>=20
>> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R
>> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot
>> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher tem=
p delta
>> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate
>>   pressure before intake
>>=20
>> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boo=
st.
>>=20
>> What am I missing?
>>=20
> The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away?=
 =20
Though,  like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane=
.  It=20
wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something.  The two things t=
hat=20
spring to my mind are:
> 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator.  The drawback is that y=
ou'll=20
want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air =
through=20
the radiator.
> 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exh=
aust. =20
As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of=
 heat=20
and sonic pounding.  Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a s=
light=20
amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right.
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  htt=
p://www.flyrotary.com/
<= /blockquote>



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Del= ta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eve= ntually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--e89a8ff256425c9f9804bb8dd79f--