X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5446802 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 11:10:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by iage36 with SMTP id e36so9428260iag.25 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=BLNLLIVwAZOMM+tHF//x+YQJVqMb+iIeCXMBD3qQPHg=; b=lyST8WLuB7zlflZQnlOG/fH5LBASH/Voq+1rQm7gR9RZ0OG1/61ppxbvKY0EuTV0Bo dtfzheVIPpqEaiAKiIyn5SSgVZhGxOn4f2YgQ1Mo9vf6iRADzouIVgC16jgTF2SENpqf xOTZOGIBXSbZ29CRGbN0i8CMUCD1lYBwC0FIx9X/ZB1pLakI04qD0Sfs81yZSapKmrGT AuTiqsQfAgs+SWV3+x+YdsYgDTM4gqaa5o0ozQL7erKUnDkCGVKNvUiuB66mUJofg2t9 E+kkf97/s6ncronNXTEB4IzKH1Xuy39ICh/Wg+c+114VfswcfHq4ew2P6Y9jPOU+EeUf 2hvQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.25.73 with SMTP id a9mr10981191oeg.63.1332083393020; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.165.67 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:09:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff2564273c56f04bb85d5a8 --e89a8ff2564273c56f04bb85d5a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My Turbonetics TO4E-50 has the F1-65 turbine wheel but I chose the really loose 1.15 a/r housing to avoid compressor surge and over speed at hoped for relatively high altitude cruising............. Kelly Troyer On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > ** > I understand, some decisions have to be made before you know all the > factors. An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted to caution you if it > was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small size for aircraft > application - particularly if you do not have any active boost control. > > Ed > > *From:* shipchief@aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup > > Ed; > While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, trying to > recall what was in my 60-1 turbo. > I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I was going > to face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choices. The > turbinescome in 2 sizes, F1-62 & F1-65. > Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That's it for > the F1-62 wheel. > The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30. > I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm thinking it's > actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, and the median choice > if I have the F1-65 wheel. > Now I need to check. > I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about sizing > a turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman set me up > for a 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with a tight > engine cover.... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Anderson > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 6:41 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup > > I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio turbine housing. A > small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - that "kick in the seat" > sports car feel. However, at high rpm/power settings several things occur > if no way of controlling the boost. > > 1. The small a/r will tend to overspeed the turbine - especially at > altitude and can lead to surging. > 2. The small a/r will produce a large amount of backpressure and heat > from the turbine housing back to the engine - and add to your heat load > - simply because it can not escape as readily as with an larger a/r. > 3. The boost pressure may well exceed what your system is designed for > 4. You will not produce as much HP at the higher rpm because the overall > air mass flow will be less. > > Most have found that if using an uncontrolled turbocharger that an a/r > around 1.0 produces better and safer results. With a Turbonetics 60--1, > you should have no problem acquiring a turbine housing closer to 1.0 > > There are several good books around on turbocharger and a/r selection - > might want to browse through a few. > > Good luck > > Ed > > *From:* shipchief@aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup > > Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum! > I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST to > the end of the runway and back. > I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can't > give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me that > my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate > or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??) > Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I have > done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the > airport, I've been increasing the power output. > I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil > temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went for a > few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water cool > well at lower settings. > I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate > auxilliary equipment. > I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and space > constraints in the 'engine room'. > I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don't > have the nose gear version. > I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed, > but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove some > layers to get to the core engine. > Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !! > I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand > turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it > up to 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are > getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of > time. > I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too. > The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as > soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some > faster taxi tests... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark McClure > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup > > I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I want the > muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" which > can be quite large when factoring in all the components. > > I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to have the > boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and electronic > flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at all > flight regimes. > > What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two > primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those only > provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines have > small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control > units. Redundancy is the name of the game. > > So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 and > EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics. of > course the two will be redundant to each other. > > Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery and > the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring. > > I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot of > energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned there > is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for something > useful. > > Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a Turbo > Normalized setup though. > > Mark > > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > > > On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote: > >> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but would like > to set it for 3-5 psi boost. > >> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, which are not > always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle response > (usually) and run at high % power continuously. > >> > >> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques: > >> > >> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R > >> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot > >> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher temp delta > >> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate > >> pressure before intake > >> > >> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost. > >> > >> What am I missing? > >> > > The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away? > Though, like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane. It > wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something. The two things that > spring to my mind are: > > 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator. The drawback is that you'll > want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air through > the radiator. > > 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exhaust. > As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of heat > and sonic pounding. Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a slight > amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right. > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --e89a8ff2564273c56f04bb85d5a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 My Turbonetics TO4E-50 has the F1-65 turbine wheel but I chose the= really loose 1.15 a/r housing to avoid compressor
=A0surge and over speed at hoped for relatively high=A0altitude cruisi= ng.............
=A0
Kelly Troyer
=A0
=A0
=A0
On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@c= arolina.rr.com> wrote:
I understand, some decisions have to be made befo= re you know all the factors.=A0 An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted t= o caution you if it was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small = size for aircraft application - particularly if you do not have any active = boost control.
=A0
Ed

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup
<= /div>

Ed;
While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, tryin= g to recall what was in my 60-1 turbo.
I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I= was going to face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choice= s. The turbinescome in 2 sizes,=A0F1-62 & F1-65.
Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That&#= 39;s it for the F1-62 wheel.
The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30.
I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm think= ing=A0it's actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, and th= e median choice if I have the F1-65 wheel.
Now I need to check.
I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about= sizing a turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman set= me up for a 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with a tigh= t engine cover....=A0


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&g= t;
Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 6:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Turbo charger setup

I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio = turbine housing.=A0 A small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - th= at "kick in the seat" sports car feel.=A0 However, at high rpm/po= wer settings several things occur if no way of controlling the boost.
=A0
1.=A0 The small a/r will tend to overspeed the tu= rbine - especially at altitude and can lead to surging.
2.=A0 The small a/r will produce a large amount o= f backpressure and heat from the turbine housing back to the engine - and a= dd to your heat load -=A0simply because it can not escape as readily as wit= h an larger a/r.
3.=A0 The boost pressure may well exceed what you= r system is designed for
4.=A0 You will not produce as much HP at the high= er rpm because the overall air mass flow will be less.
=A0
Most have found that if using an uncontrolled tur= bocharger that an a/r=A0 around 1.0 produces better and safer results.=A0 W= ith a Turbonetics 60--1, you should have no problem acquiring a turbine hou= sing closer to 1.0
=A0
There are several good books around on turbocharg= er and a/r selection - might want to browse through a few.
=A0
Good luck
=A0
Ed

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup
<= /div>

Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum!
I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI T= EST to the end of the runway and back.
I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I= can't give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum tol= d me that my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler,= wastegate or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??)
Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied=A0down as I = have done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the= airport, I've been increasing the power output.
I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM.= =A0The oil temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it= went for a few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and = water cool well at lower settings.
I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to ope= rate auxilliary equipment.
I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and= space constraints in the 'engine room'.
I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don= 't have the nose gear version.
I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if neede= d, but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove s= ome layers to get to the core engine.
Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !!
I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left h= and turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got= it up to 2280 RPM static. That seems=A0up to=A0200 RPM higher that RV'= s are getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained len= gth of time.
I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.
The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as= soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try som= e faster taxi tests...


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark McClure <markmcclure@me.com&= gt;
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger se= tup

I am planning on using the turbi=
ne of a turbo to spin a generator. I want the=20
muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo s=
etup" which=20
can be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20

I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to ha=
ve the=20
boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and elect=
ronic=20
flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at al=
l=20
flight regimes.

What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two=
=20
primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those =
only=20
provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines h=
ave=20
small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control=
=20
units. Redundancy is the name of the game.

So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 an=
d=20
EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics=
. of=20
course the two will be redundant to each other.=20

Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery a=
nd=20
the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring.=
=20

I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot =
of=20
energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned th=
ere=20
is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for somethin=
g=20
useful.

 Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a =
Turbo=20
Normalized setup though.

Mark


On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:

> On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, =
but would like=20
to set it for 3-5 psi boost.
>> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, wh=
ich are not=20
always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle res=
ponse=20
(usually) and run at high % power continuously.
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques:
>>=20
>> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R
>> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot
>> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher tem=
p delta
>> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate
>>   pressure before intake
>>=20
>> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boo=
st.
>>=20
>> What am I missing?
>>=20
> The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away?=
 =20
Though,  like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane=
.  It=20
wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something.  The two things t=
hat=20
spring to my mind are:
> 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator.  The drawback is that y=
ou'll=20
want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air =
through=20
the radiator.
> 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exh=
aust. =20
As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of=
 heat=20
and sonic pounding.  Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a s=
light=20
amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right.
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  htt=
p://www.flyrotary.com/

> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/li=
sts/flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage:  http://w=
ww.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/f=
lyrotary/List.html
<= /blockquote>



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Del= ta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--e89a8ff2564273c56f04bb85d5a8--