X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5446697 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:46:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=bLSU0YCZ c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=AHkS0RJitIMA:10 a=zbS63xeob0QA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=HHGDD-5mAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kFiIJPNcN9xy6U1tP6cA:9 a=C--vI3Bj1up_WF5nLA8A:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=i1zE5R4R5dEA:10 a=zd_whFZwXOvbweHFw60A:9 a=RAbALv8mFNYNPsHKDpUA:7 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:61388] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 19/39-29249-909D56F4; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:46:01 +0000 Message-ID: <1276E0C0CFC04955BE3E0BC2D52AB871@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:45:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01CD04E3.834B7460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01CD04E3.834B7460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand, some decisions have to be made before you know all the = factors. An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted to caution you if it = was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small size for aircraft = application - particularly if you do not have any active boost control. Ed From: shipchief@aol.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup Ed; While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, trying = to recall what was in my 60-1 turbo. I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I was going = to face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choices. The = turbinescome in 2 sizes, F1-62 & F1-65. Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That's it = for the F1-62 wheel. The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30. I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm thinking = it's actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, and the = median choice if I have the F1-65 wheel. Now I need to check.=20 I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about = sizing a turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman = set me up for a 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with = a tight engine cover....=20 -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 6:41 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio turbine housing. A = small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - that "kick in the = seat" sports car feel. However, at high rpm/power settings several = things occur if no way of controlling the boost. 1. The small a/r will tend to overspeed the turbine - especially at = altitude and can lead to surging. 2. The small a/r will produce a large amount of backpressure and heat = from the turbine housing back to the engine - and add to your heat load = - simply because it can not escape as readily as with an larger a/r. 3. The boost pressure may well exceed what your system is designed for 4. You will not produce as much HP at the higher rpm because the = overall air mass flow will be less. Most have found that if using an uncontrolled turbocharger that an a/r = around 1.0 produces better and safer results. With a Turbonetics 60--1, = you should have no problem acquiring a turbine housing closer to 1.0 There are several good books around on turbocharger and a/r selection - = might want to browse through a few. Good luck Ed From: shipchief@aol.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum! I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST to = the end of the runway and back. I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can't = give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me = that my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, = wastegate or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??) Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I have = done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the = airport, I've been increasing the power output. I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil = temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went = for a few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and = water cool well at lower settings. I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate = auxilliary equipment. I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and space = constraints in the 'engine room'. I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don't = have the nose gear version. I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed, = but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove = some layers to get to the core engine. Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !! I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand = turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got = it up to 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are = getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of = time. I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.=20 The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as = soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try = some faster taxi tests... -----Original Message----- From: Mark McClure To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I = want the=20 muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" = which=20 can be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20 I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to = have the=20 boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and = electronic=20 flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at = all=20 flight regimes. What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are = two=20 primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But = those only=20 provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The = engines have=20 small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine = control=20 units. Redundancy is the name of the game. So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 = and=20 EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and = avionics. of=20 course the two will be redundant to each other.=20 Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup = battery and=20 the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and = monitoring.=20 I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a = lot of=20 energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned = there=20 is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for = something=20 useful. Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as = a Turbo=20 Normalized setup though. Mark On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote: >> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but = would like=20 to set it for 3-5 psi boost. >> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, which = are not=20 always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle = response=20 (usually) and run at high % power continuously. >>=20 >> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques: >>=20 >> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R >> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot >> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher temp = delta >> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate >> pressure before intake >>=20 >> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost. >>=20 >> What am I missing? >>=20 > The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away? = =20 Though, like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an = airplane. It=20 wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something. The two things = that=20 spring to my mind are: > 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator. The drawback is that = you'll=20 want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air = through=20 the radiator. > 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the = exhaust. =20 As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination = of heat=20 and sonic pounding. Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be = a slight=20 amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right. >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01CD04E3.834B7460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I understand, some decisions have to be made = before you=20 know all the factors.  An a/r of 0.81 may work fine, just wanted to = caution=20 you if it was 0.69 as I truly believe that is a bit on the small size = for=20 aircraft application - particularly if you do not have any active boost=20 control.
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger = setup

Ed;
While you were answering my post, I was on the Turbonetics site, = trying to=20 recall what was in my 60-1 turbo.
I have the 'on center' housing, due to not knowing which way I was = going to=20 face the turbo at the time. This sets the possible A/R choices. The = turbinescome=20 in 2 sizes, F1-62 & F1-65.
Of those, the on-center housings' A/R start @ .58, .69, .81 That's = it for=20 the F1-62 wheel.
The F1-65 wheel continues on to .96 and 1.30.
I mistankenly said in the last post that the A/R is .61. I'm=20 thinking it's actaully .81, the loosest choice for the F1-62 wheel, = and the=20 median choice if I have the F1-65 wheel.
Now I need to check.
I want to set up loose for first flights. I didn't know much about = sizing a=20 turbo when I bought this one, so I called and had the saleman set me up = for a=20 13b turbo jetboat to be run at high altitude lakes with a tight engine=20 cover.... 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sat, Mar=20 17, 2012 6:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup

I would be hesitant to fly with a 0.68 a/r ratio = turbine=20 housing.  A small a/r gives you tremendous (and rapid) boost - that = "kick=20 in the seat" sports car feel.  However, at high rpm/power settings = several=20 things occur if no way of controlling the boost.
 
1.  The small a/r will tend to overspeed = the turbine=20 - especially at altitude and can lead to surging.
2.  The small a/r will produce a large = amount of=20 backpressure and heat from the turbine housing back to the engine - and = add to=20 your heat load - simply because it can not escape as readily as = with an=20 larger a/r.
3.  The boost pressure may well exceed what = your=20 system is designed for
4.  You will not produce as much HP at the = higher rpm=20 because the overall air mass flow will be less.
 
Most have found that if using an uncontrolled = turbocharger=20 that an a/r  around 1.0 produces better and safer results.  = With a=20 Turbonetics 60--1, you should have no problem acquiring a turbine = housing closer=20 to 1.0
 
There are several good books around on = turbocharger and=20 a/r selection - might want to browse through a few.
 
Good luck
 
Ed

From: shipchief@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger = setup

Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum!
I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI = TEST to=20 the end of the runway and back.
I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I = can't=20 give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me = that my=20 exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate = or blow=20 off valve. (.61 A/R??)
Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down = as I=20 have done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at = the=20 airport, I've been increasing the power output.
I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about = 5000RPM. The=20 oil temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it = went for a=20 few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water = cool well=20 at lower settings.
I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to = operate=20 auxilliary equipment.
I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and = space=20 constraints in the 'engine room'.
I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I = don't=20 have the nose gear version.
I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if = needed,=20 but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove = some=20 layers to get to the core engine.
Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !!
I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left = hand=20 turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got = it up to=20 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are = getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of=20 time.
I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.
The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so = as soon=20 as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some = faster=20 taxi tests...


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark McClure <markmcclure@me.com>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger = setup

I am planning on using the turbine of a =
turbo to spin a generator. I want the=20
muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" =
which=20
can be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20

I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to =
have the=20
boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and =
electronic=20
flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at =
all=20
flight regimes.

What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are =
two=20
primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But =
those only=20
provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The =
engines have=20
small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine =
control=20
units. Redundancy is the name of the game.

So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 =
and=20
EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and =
avionics. of=20
course the two will be redundant to each other.=20

Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup =
battery and=20
the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and =
monitoring.=20

I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a =
lot of=20
energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned =
there=20
is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for =
something=20
useful.

 Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as =
a Turbo=20
Normalized setup though.

Mark


On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:

> On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, =
but would like=20
to set it for 3-5 psi boost.
>> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, =
which are not=20
always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle =
response=20
(usually) and run at high % power continuously.
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques:
>>=20
>> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R
>> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot
>> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher =
temp delta
>> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to =
regulate
>>   pressure before intake
>>=20
>> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost.
>>=20
>> What am I missing?
>>=20
> The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it =
away? =20
Though,  like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an =
airplane.  It=20
wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something.  The two things =
that=20
spring to my mind are:
> 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator.  The drawback is =
that you'll=20
want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air =
through=20
the radiator.
> 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the =
exhaust. =20
As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination =
of heat=20
and sonic pounding.  Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be =
a slight=20
amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right.
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm=
l
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