X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5446424 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:17:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.96; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.76]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q2I4GrRt006891 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:16:53 -0400 Received: from core-ddb001b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddb001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.65]) by mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 7C487E000088 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:16:53 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CED2D5155841A0_BD4_12778_webmail-m147.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 35775-STANDARD Received: from 98.247.174.242 by webmail-m147.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.30) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:16:53 -0400 Message-Id: <8CED2D5154C5AB1-BD4-4A65@webmail-m147.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [98.247.174.242] Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 00:16:53 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1332044213; bh=tqRKzgF79qsAKAjZh7jN17jv77IbQUa+e06pSKzCL28=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Epm1VQsV2b1hgaXfDUQS4UvFoJkZcOCeaJqch89juJud13baYJpXHwuhQu/XGgCqI 7P6MSPpX/LfHAdT60KSjZRm1GSne+Unq2KPDnSXZ0Xi5YKK18mE2TA7154h5v6nNoM ZG73fr2BTy+IUhXBEUgLBLxgS3bQMgaWieFcaXVA= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:478057696:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294c4f6561b55ebb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CED2D5155841A0_BD4_12778_webmail-m147.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ernest; You are cruel, yet honest. And absolutely correct. I did buy myself a pack of trouble. But remember fr= om my previous posts; I did it for the fun of the challenge. Knowing that V= ANs designed the RV-8 for 200HP, and knowing that Tracy has stated a pre-Re= nesis 13b NA puts out 180 -190 HP, I had to do it. Also, the muffler tests = hadn't been going well, so I decided to use the turbo as a muffler. I will = say that this has worked well at ground running power settings. I'll take this as an opprotunity to add that a boost blow off valve could e= asily be added, as the turbo discharge pipe is segmented and large in diame= ter. I can add a radiator cap flange, and a low pressure cap to limit boost= before the throttle body. For a cheap and easy pressure control, I can remove a hose clamp from an in= take hose segment before the throttle body, cheasy, but cheap proof of conc= ept prior to spending time & $ on it if a problem is identified. -----Original Message----- From: Ernest Christley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 9:01 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup Didn't you give up on simplicating when you said turbo? 8*) shipchief@aol.com wrote: > Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum! I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST to th= e=20 nd of the runway and back. I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can't gi= ve=20 he particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me that my exha= ust=20 ousing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate or blow off= =20 alve. (.61 A/R??) Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I have do= ne=20 n the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the airport, I= 've=20 een increasing the power output. I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil tem= p=20 as climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went for a few= =20 econds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water cool well a= t=20 ower settings. I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate=20 uxilliary equipment. I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and space=20 onstraints in the 'engine room'. I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don't ha= ve=20 he nose gear version. I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed, bu= t=20 ervicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove some laye= rs=20 o get to the core engine. Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !! I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand turni= g=20 ersion of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it up to 22= 80=20 PM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are getting. I just do= n't=20 now if I can do that for any sustained length of time. I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.=20 The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as soon= as=20 get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some faster t= axi=20 ests... -----Original Message----- From: Mark McClure To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I want t= he=20 uffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" whic= h=20 an be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20 I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to have t= he=20 oosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and electr= onic=20 >lying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at al= l=20 light regimes. What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two= =20 rimary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those o= nly=20 rovide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines ha= ve=20 mall alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control= =20 nits. Redundancy is the name of the game. So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 an= d=20 M3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics.= of=20 ourse the two will be redundant to each other.=20 Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery a= nd=20 he airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring.= =20 I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot = of=20 nergy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned the= re=20 s something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for something= =20 seful. Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a= =20 urbo=20 ormalized setup though. Mark n Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote: > I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but would l= ike=20 o set it for 3-5 psi boost. > A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, which are= not=20 >lways directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle res= ponse=20 >usually) and run at high % power continuously. >=20 > I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques: >=20 > * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R > * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot > * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher temp delta > * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate > pressure before intake >=20 > The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost. >=20 > What am I missing? >=20 The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away? =20 hough, like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane.= It=20 >ouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something. The two things that= =20 pring to my mind are: 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator. The drawback is that you'l= l=20 ant more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air throu= gh=20 he radiator. 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exhaust= . =20 s I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of = heat=20 >nd sonic pounding. Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a s= light=20 >mount of thrust available if everything is set up just right. =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html - omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml =20 - omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml ----------MB_8CED2D5155841A0_BD4_12778_webmail-m147.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Ernest;
You are cruel, yet honest.
And absolutely correct. I did buy myself a pack of trouble. But rememb= er from my previous posts; I did it for the fun of the challenge. Knowing t= hat VANs designed the RV-8 for 200HP, and knowing that Tracy has stated a p= re-Renesis 13b NA puts out 180 -190 HP, I had to do it. Also, the muff= ler tests hadn't been going well, so I decided to use the turbo as a muffle= r. I will say that this has worked well at ground running power settings.
I'll take this as an opprotunity to add that a boost blow off valve co= uld easily be added, as the turbo discharge pipe is segmented and large in = diameter. I can add a radiator cap flange, and a low pressure cap to limit = boost before the throttle body.
For a cheap and easy pressure control, I can remove a hose clamp from = an intake hose segment before the throttle body, cheasy, but cheap proof of= concept prior to spending time & $ on it if a problem is identified.

= -----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 17, 2012 9:01 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup

Didn't=
 you give up on simplicating when you said turbo? 8*)

shipchief@aol.com wrote:

>
>Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum!
>I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST t=
o the=20
end of the runway and back.
>I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can'=
t give=20
the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me that my exh=
aust=20
housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate or blow of=
f=20
valve. (.61 A/R??)
>Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I hav=
e done=20
in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the airport, =
I've=20
been increasing the power output.
>I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil=
 temp=20
was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went for a few=
=20
seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water cool well =
at=20
lower settings.
>I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate=
=20
auxilliary equipment.
>I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and spac=
e=20
constraints in the 'engine room'.
>I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don'=
t have=20
the nose gear version.
>I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed=
, but=20
servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove some lay=
ers=20
to get to the core engine.
>Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !!
>I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand t=
urnig=20
version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it up to 2=
280=20
RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are getting. I just d=
on't=20
know if I can do that for any sustained length of time.
>I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.=20
>The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as =
soon as=20
I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some faster =
taxi=20
tests...
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark McClure <markmcclur=
e@me.com>
>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm
>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup
>
>
>I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I wa=
nt the=20
>uffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" =
which=20
>an be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20
>I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to ha=
ve the=20
>oosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and el=
ectronic=20

>lying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at=
 all=20
>light regimes.
>What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are =
two=20
>rimary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But tho=
se only=20
>rovide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engine=
s have=20
>mall alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine cont=
rol=20
>nits. Redundancy is the name of the game.
>So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC=
3 and=20
>M3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avion=
ics. of=20
>ourse the two will be redundant to each other.=20
>Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup batte=
ry and=20
>he airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitori=
ng.=20
>I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a =
lot of=20
>nergy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned=
 there=20
>s something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for somet=
hing=20
>seful.
> Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that a=
s a=20
Turbo=20
>ormalized setup though.
>Mark
>
>n Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
>> On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but =
would like=20
>o set it for 3-5 psi boost.
>> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, wh=
ich are not=20

>lways directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle =
response=20

>usually) and run at high % power continuously.
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques:
>>=20
>> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R
>> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot
>> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher tem=
p delta
>> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate
>>   pressure before intake
>>=20
>> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost.
>>=20
>> What am I missing?
>>=20
> The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away?=
 =20
>hough,  like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airpl=
ane.  It=20

>ouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something.  The two things th=
at=20
>pring to my mind are:
> 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator.  The drawback is that y=
ou'll=20
>ant more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air t=
hrough=20
>he radiator.
> 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exh=
aust. =20
>s I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination=
 of heat=20

>nd sonic pounding.  Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be =
a slight=20

>mount of thrust available if everything is set up just right.
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http:=
//www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list=
s/flyrotary/List.html
>
>-
>omepage:  http://=
www.flyrotary.com/
>rchive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/=
flyrotary/List.html
>
=09=20
--
Homepage:  http://www=
.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly=
rotary/List.html
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