X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5446285 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:59:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.42; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.137]) by imr-ma04.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q2HMwwGe005531 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:58:58 -0400 Received: from core-ddb004a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddb004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.77]) by mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 7EE44E000081 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:58:58 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CED2A8ABDB7957_14E4_1F4E0_webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 35775-STANDARD Received: from 66.233.22.138 by webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com (64.12.158.160) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:58:58 -0400 Message-Id: <8CED2A8AB5FB107-14E4-7B11@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [66.233.22.138] Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:58:58 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1332025138; bh=VJXci8jFSEinb3vU5a6Ol/bYeOzOj3OxsTCL3TbXvkg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Tj0X4ae7Y3xgzOlSXCCkBwJh0A6/W13Yggilea7iVxU/JzlUdH9t80kB7GzR/lcKO udohRsTSKPOdjaATSIT3CLXQReWu7pP/5YpwmzRVT+gTbDg5nUztCDpfjBMzWJSyM8 2OS8Yt63uE3CS3v5wcUOK03RZELh9hG8HVgPZ3JI= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:474156512:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33894f65173220d1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CED2A8ABDB7957_14E4_1F4E0_webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum! I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST to th= e end of the runway and back. I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can't gi= ve the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me that my = exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastegate or= blow off valve. (.61 A/R??) Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as I have do= ne in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at the airpor= t, I've been increasing the power output. I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. The oil tem= p was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it went for a fe= w seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and water cool wel= l at lower settings. I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate auxi= lliary equipment. I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and space co= nstraints in the 'engine room'. I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don't ha= ve the nose gear version. I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if needed, bu= t servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove some l= ayers to get to the core engine. Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !! I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand turni= g version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it up to= 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's are getting. I = just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of time. I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.=20 The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as soon= as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try some fas= ter taxi tests... -----Original Message----- From: Mark McClure To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup I am planning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I want t= he=20 uffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" whic= h=20 an be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20 I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to have t= he=20 oosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and electr= onic=20 lying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at all= =20 light regimes. What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two= =20 rimary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those o= nly=20 rovide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines ha= ve=20 mall alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control= =20 nits. Redundancy is the name of the game. So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 an= d=20 M3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics.= of=20 ourse the two will be redundant to each other.=20 Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery a= nd=20 he airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring.= =20 I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot = of=20 nergy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned the= re=20 s something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for something= =20 seful. Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a = Turbo=20 ormalized setup though. Mark n Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote: > I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but would l= ike=20 o set it for 3-5 psi boost. > A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, which are= not=20 lways directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle resp= onse=20 usually) and run at high % power continuously. >=20 > I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques: >=20 > * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R > * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot > * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher temp delta > * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate > pressure before intake >=20 > The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost. >=20 > What am I missing? >=20 The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away? =20 hough, like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane.= It=20 ouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something. The two things that= =20 pring to my mind are: 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator. The drawback is that you'l= l=20 ant more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air throu= gh=20 he radiator. 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exhaust= . =20 s I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of = heat=20 nd sonic pounding. Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a sl= ight=20 mount of thrust available if everything is set up just right. =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html - omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml ----------MB_8CED2A8ABDB7957_14E4_1F4E0_webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
=
Looks like March 7 was a busy day for this forum!
I'm ground running my RV-8 at the airport now. I even did a TAXI TEST = to the end of the runway and back.
I have a Turbo 13b, with a Turbonetics 60-1. I'm at work now, so I can= 't give the particulars on the turbo, but someone on this forum told me tha= t my exhaust housing is pretty tight for not having an intercooler, wastega= te or blow off valve. (.61 A/R??)
Last week I ran the engine up while the aircraft was tied down as= I have done in the past. But now that I have wings and brakes etc, and at = the airport, I've been increasing the power output.
I did briefly get a boost reading of 44 " Hg, at about 5000RPM. T= he oil temp was climbing fast as Len says. I pulled back @ 200F, but it wen= t for a few seconds to 206 before it came down. Good thing the oil and wate= r cool well at lower settings.
I'm thinking aboout your comments on using excess boost air to operate= auxilliary equipment.
I don't think you can do that in a practical way due to weight and spa= ce constraints in the 'engine room'.
I can barely fit all my 13b turbo stuff inside an RV-8 cowl, and I don= 't have the nose gear version.
I could eventually fit a remote wastegate, and an intercooler if neede= d, but servicing the engine would be difficult, as I would have to remove s= ome layers to get to the core engine.
Remember, "Add lightness and simplicate" !!
I think I'm getting good power. The CATTO 2 blade prop is a left hand = turnig version of his standard for O-360 Lycoming 180 HP engines. I got it = up to 2280 RPM static. That seems up to 200 RPM higher that RV's = are getting. I just don't know if I can do that for any sustained length of= time.
I worry about high inlet air temp,and oil temp too.
The engine seems to respond well to throttle command while taxi, so as= soon as I get some more wires pulled and the wing tips on, I could try som= e faster taxi tests...


= -----Original Message-----
From: Mark McClure <markmcclure@me.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:04 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo charger setup

I am p=
lanning on using the turbine of a turbo to spin a generator. I want the=20
muffler action. I don't want the added weight/drag of the "Turbo setup" whi=
ch=20
can be quite large when factoring in all the components.=20

I plan to do most of my flying below 10k so it doesn't make sense to have t=
he=20
boosted air. On the other hand - having electronic engine control and elect=
ronic=20
flying instruments electricity is becoming increasing important to me at al=
l=20
flight regimes.

What I fly for a living has a similar electrical demand - so there are two=
=20
primary generators and a third powered off an APU, just in case. But those =
only=20
provide electricity to the instruments and mission equipment. The engines h=
ave=20
small alternators on them for providing primary power to the engine control=
=20
units. Redundancy is the name of the game.

So my plan right now is to have an alternator providing power to the EC3 an=
d=20
EM3. and then a generator providing power to the glass cockpit and avionics=
. of=20
course the two will be redundant to each other.=20

Then for full redundancy - the glass cockpit has their own backup battery a=
nd=20
the airframe battery provides backup for the engine control and monitoring.=
=20

I am still very early in the process though - but I believe there is a lot =
of=20
energy to harness out of the exhaust of the rotary. But as you mentioned th=
ere=20
is something to be said for the muffler action being harnessed for somethin=
g=20
useful.

 Your plan though seems to work in theory - I would probably use that as a =
Turbo=20
Normalized setup though.

Mark


On Mar 7, 2012, at 6:26 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:

> On 03/07/2012 06:51 PM, Patrick wrote:
>> I'm planning to use a turbo on a 20B, primarily as a muffler, but =
would like=20
to set it for 3-5 psi boost.
>> A lot of current techniques are based on street car experience, wh=
ich are not=20
always directly applicable to airplanes, ie. no need for rapid throttle res=
ponse=20
(usually) and run at high % power continuously.
>>=20
>> I'm thinking of a setup modeling refrigeration techniques:
>>=20
>> * Run all exhaust through turbo, no waste-gate, larger A/R
>> * Compress higher than needed, which makes air very hot
>> * Run through intercooler, which is more efficient with higher tem=
p delta
>> * Allow to expand using larger pipe and blow-off valve to regulate
>>   pressure before intake
>>=20
>> The result "should be" cooler intake air at a slight boost.
>>=20
>> What am I missing?
>>=20
> The energy cost of compressing all that air and then throwing it away?=
 =20
Though,  like Tracy has said, pressurized air is hard to get on an airplane=
.  It=20
wouldn't be so bad if you could use it for something.  The two things that=
=20
spring to my mind are:
> 1) engine cooling: blow it through a radiator.  The drawback is that y=
ou'll=20
want more boost on climbout, and that is when you'd want the extra air thro=
ugh=20
the radiator.
> 2) exhaust cooling/thrust: push the extra cool air into/around the exh=
aust. =20
As I understand it, rotary mufflers die quickly because of a combination of=
 heat=20
and sonic pounding.  Cooling it will reduce both, and if there might be a s=
light=20
amount of thrust available if everything is set up just right.
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http:=
//www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list=
s/flyrotary/List.html


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