X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from blu0-omc2-s35.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.111.110] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5433743 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 11:12:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.111.110; envelope-from=stol83001@live.com Received: from BLU158-W41 ([65.55.111.73]) by blu0-omc2-s35.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:11:53 -0800 Message-ID: Return-Path: stol83001@live.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d3fe4b5d-4dab-4038-84f4-b275a2ea0295_" X-Originating-IP: [184.167.7.198] From: Ben Haas To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:11:53 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Mar 2012 16:11:53.0615 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D4841F0:01CCFD46] --_d3fe4b5d-4dab-4038-84f4-b275a2ea0295_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume you are talking about radiators that have duel cooling circuits li= ke are installed in cars and trucks... The pressure of the trans fluid pas= sing through a radiator is very low... like in the 5 - 10 PSI range... The= whole purpose is to circulate it for cooling=2C it is volume... not pressu= re.... Introducing engine oil pressure to that part of a radiator designed= for low pressures will blow up the tank in very short order. The option to= use those stand alone inline oil coolers are what you are after.. IMHO. Ben Haas www.haaspowerair.com =20 To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net From: gordon@acumen-ea.com Date: Thu=2C 8 Mar 2012 08:38:49 -0500 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators That is interesting. Does anyone know what the max oil flow rate (@ 6000 e= ngine RPM) is through the cooler? I think I recall that we are looking for= around 80 psi oil pressure. Correct? =20 Gordon C. Alling=2C Jr.=2C PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc. =20 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday=2C March 07=2C 2012 4:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators =20 Gordon=2C As a point of interest I have a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (13B from thi= s car is going in my Dyke Delta) with=20 a 2004R Turbo/Hydro auto trans.............I am using the stock RX7 auto = radiator oil cooler and also sending trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is bypassed in this cooler until = it reaches about 150 F)............I have over 60=2C000 miles on this conversion...............FWIW =20 Kelly Troyer On Wed=2C Mar 7=2C 2012 at 2:47 PM=2C Kelly Troyer wrote= : Gordon=2C Unless you used a pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the tra= ns cooler part of an auto radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very restr= ictive (not designed for the volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans coolers wer= e not designed for the pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about 10 w= t as opposed to 40 to 50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO =20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress) 13B/Turbo =20 On Wed=2C Mar 7=2C 2012 at 2:33 PM=2C Gordon Alling = wrote: Yes=2C I'm running two 13Bs. One rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas engine=2C the total fuel energy is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft=2C = 1/3 to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. Assuming an even 200 HP shaft power= =2C that puts approximately 200 HP =3D 510=2C000 BTU/hr into the coolant. I do= n't know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine. My approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughly the same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works. That aside=2C I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking = at integrate an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. This strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engine oil. Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil=2C as a starting point=2C I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated= to oil cooling. In the end=2C I will have to test is and see. Thanks for the input. Gordon C. Alling=2C Jr.=2C PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday=2C March 07=2C 2012 3:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators Bill=2C I don't think Gordon is running a rotary=2C so the 2/3 - 1/3 rule probably doesn't apply. I have no idea what the water-oil ratio of is for a 4.3L Chevy V-6=2C but I'd bet that info is available somewhere on the internet. Mark On 3/7/12=2C William Jepson wrote: > Gordon=2C the oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard > I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lots of > "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about 3 ci of heat exchanger per hp. > That would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes things > dramatically but that is a start. > Bill Jepson > On Mar 7=2C 2012 7:20 AM=2C "Gordon Alling" wrote: > >> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. I've noted some >> automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling with the >> engine coolant heat exchanger. Has anyone looked at these as a means of >> integrating the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application? Does >> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in a typical >> GMC 4.3 L Jimmy?**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Gordon C. Alling=2C Jr.=2C PE**** >> >> President**** >> >> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc.***** >> >> ** ** >> >> 540-786-2200**** >> >> www.acumen-ea.com**** >> >> ** ** >> > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --=20 Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 = --_d3fe4b5d-4dab-4038-84f4-b275a2ea0295_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I assume you are talking about radiators that have duel cooling circuits li= ke =3Bare installed in cars and trucks... =3B The pressure of the t= rans fluid passing through a radiator is very low... like in the =3B 5 = - 10 PSI range... The whole purpose is to circulate it for cooling=2C it is= volume... not pressure.... Introducing =3B engine oil pressure to that= part of a radiator designed for low pressures will blow up the tank in ver= y short order. The option =3Bto use =3Bthose =3B stand alone in= line oil coolers
are what you are after.. IMHO.
Ben Ha= as
www.haaspowerair.com

 =3B
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
From: gordon@acumen-ea.com
Date: Thu= =2C 8 Mar 2012 08:38:49 -0500
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators

That is interesting. =3B Does anyone know what = the max oil flow rate (@ 6000 engine RPM) is through the cooler? = =3B I think I recall that we are looking for around 80 psi oil press= ure. =3B Correct?

 =3B

Gordon C. Alling=2C Jr.=2C PE

President

<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Garamond'=2C'serif'=3B COLOR: #0070c0=3B FONT-S= IZE: 18pt=3B FONT-WEIGHT: bold">acumen Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc.

 =3B

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 =3B

F= rom: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] O= n Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Wednesday=2C March 07=2C 2012 4:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators<= /SPAN>

 =3B

 =3BGordon=2C

 =3B =3B =3B As a point of interest I have= a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (13B from this car is going in my Dyke Delta) = with

a  =3B2004R =3B Turbo/Hydro auto trans........= .....I am using the stock RX7 auto radiator oil cooler and also sending

trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is bypassed = in this cooler =3Buntil it =3B reaches about 150 F)............I ha= ve

over 60=2C000 miles on this conversion...............F= WIW

 =3B

Kelly Troyer

On Wed=2C Mar 7=2C 2012 at 2:47 PM=2C Kelly Troyer <= =3Bkeltro@gmail.com>=3B wrote:

Gordon=2C

 =3B =3B =3B =3B Unless you used a&nbs= p=3B pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the trans cooler part of a= n auto

radiator this would not work very well.............Bes= ides being very restrictive (not designed for the

volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radia= tor trans coolers were not designed for the

pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto tr= ans oil is about 10 wt as opposed to 40 to

50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)............= ........IMHO

 =3B

Kelly Troyer

Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress)

13B/Turbo =3B = =3B

On Wed=2C Mar 7=2C 2012 at 2:33 PM=2C Gordon Alling &l= t=3Bgordon@acumen-ea.com>=3B = wrote:

Yes=2C I'm running two 13Bs.  =3BOne rule of thumb= I use is for a typical gas
engine=2C the total fuel energy is distribut= ed roughly 1/3 to the shaft=2C 1/3
to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust= .  =3BAssuming an even 200 HP shaft power=2C
that puts approximately= 200 HP =3D 510=2C000 BTU/hr into the coolant.  =3BI don't
know how = this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine.  =3BMy
a= pproach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughlythe same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works.

That aside=2C= I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at
integra= te an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil.  =3BThis
= strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area=
works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engin= e
oil.  =3BAssuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil=2C as= a starting
point=2C I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face= area dedicated to
oil cooling.  =3BIn the end=2C I will have to tes= t is and see.

Thanks for the input.


Gordon C. Alling= =2C Jr.=2C PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc.

540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in a= ircraft [mailto:flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday=2C Mar= ch 07=2C 2012 3:13 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Radiators

Bill=2C

I don't think Gordon is running a r= otary=2C so the 2/3 - 1/3 rule
probably doesn't apply.  =3BI have no= idea what the water-oil ratio of is
for a 4.3L Chevy V-6=2C but I'd bet= that info is available somewhere on
the internet.

Mark

On= 3/7/12=2C William Jepson <=3Bwrjjrs@= gmail.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B Gordon=2C the oil cooling required in = a rotary is higher than a standard
>=3B I.c.e. The oil cooling is abou= t 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lots
of
>=3B "rules of thumb"= on cooling. Typically about 3 ci of heat exchanger per
hp.
>=3B Th= at would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes
thing= s
>=3B dramatically but that is a start.
>=3B Bill Jepson
>= =3B On Mar 7=2C 2012 7:20 AM=2C "Gordon Alling" <=3Bgordon@acumen-ea.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B
>= =3B>=3B I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant.  =3BI've not= ed some
>=3B>=3B automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission= fluid cooling with
the
>=3B>=3B engine coolant heat exchanger. &= nbsp=3BHas anyone looked at these as a means of
>=3B>=3B integrating= the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application?  =3BDoes
>= =3B>=3B anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in = a
typical
>=3B>=3B GMC 4.3 L  =3BJimmy?****
>=3B>=3B>=3B>=3B ** **
>=3B>=3B
>=3B>=3B Gordon C. Alling=2C Jr= .=2C PE****
>=3B>=3B
>=3B>=3B President****
>=3B>=3B>=3B>=3B *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis=2C Inc.*****
>=3B>=3B<= BR>>=3B>=3B ** **
>=3B>=3B
>=3B>=3B 54= 0-786-2200****
>=3B>=3B
>=3B>=3B www.acumen-ea.com****
>=3B>=3B
= >=3B>=3B ** **
>=3B>=3B
>=3B

--
Homepage:  = =3Bhttp://www.flyrota= ry.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.= net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage:  =3Bhttp://www.flyrotary.com= /
Archive and UnSub:  =3B http://mail.lancaironline.= net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html




--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke De= lta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2




--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke De= lta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2

=
= --_d3fe4b5d-4dab-4038-84f4-b275a2ea0295_--