X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.212] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5433487 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 08:39:30 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.59.212; envelope-from=gordon@acumen-ea.com Received: from omta11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.36]) by qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id j1dB1i0030mv7h05E1euZj; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:38:54 +0000 Received: from GordonHPelite ([76.27.173.182]) by omta11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id j1et1i00b3wUsn83X1etSP; Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:38:53 +0000 From: "Gordon Alling" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:38:49 -0500 Message-ID: <004401ccfd30$cb4b0290$61e107b0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01CCFD06.E274FA90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz8qgStoNBa/LOcSbKxqig2LFsNWQAhmDHQ Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CCFD06.E274FA90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is interesting. Does anyone know what the max oil flow rate (@ 6000 engine RPM) is through the cooler? I think I recall that we are looking for around 80 psi oil pressure. Correct? Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators Gordon, As a point of interest I have a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (13B from this car is going in my Dyke Delta) with a 2004R Turbo/Hydro auto trans.............I am using the stock RX7 auto radiator oil cooler and also sending trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is bypassed in this cooler until it reaches about 150 F)............I have over 60,000 miles on this conversion...............FWIW Kelly Troyer On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Gordon, Unless you used a pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the trans cooler part of an auto radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very restrictive (not designed for the volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans coolers were not designed for the pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about 10 wt as opposed to 40 to 50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress) 13B/Turbo On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gordon Alling wrote: Yes, I'm running two 13Bs. One rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas engine, the total fuel energy is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft, 1/3 to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. Assuming an even 200 HP shaft power, that puts approximately 200 HP = 510,000 BTU/hr into the coolant. I don't know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine. My approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughly the same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works. That aside, I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at integrate an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. This strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engine oil. Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil, as a starting point, I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated to oil cooling. In the end, I will have to test is and see. Thanks for the input. Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:13 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators Bill, I don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3 rule probably doesn't apply. I have no idea what the water-oil ratio of is for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available somewhere on the internet. Mark On 3/7/12, William Jepson wrote: > Gordon, the oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard > I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lots of > "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about 3 ci of heat exchanger per hp. > That would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes things > dramatically but that is a start. > Bill Jepson > On Mar 7, 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" wrote: > >> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. I've noted some >> automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling with the >> engine coolant heat exchanger. Has anyone looked at these as a means of >> integrating the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application? Does >> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in a typical >> GMC 4.3 L Jimmy?**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE**** >> >> President**** >> >> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.***** >> >> ** ** >> >> 540-786-2200**** >> >> www.acumen-ea.com **** >> >> ** ** >> > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CCFD06.E274FA90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is interesting.  Does anyone know what the max = oil flow rate (@ 6000 engine RPM) is through the cooler?  I think I recall that we are = looking for around 80 psi oil pressure.  = Correct?

 

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., = PE

President=

acumen Engineering/Analy= sis, Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly = Troyer
Sent: = Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators

 

 Gordon,

    As a point of = interest I have a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (13B from this car is going = in my Dyke Delta) with

a  2004R  Turbo/Hydro auto = trans.............I am using the stock RX7 auto radiator oil cooler and = also sending

trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is = bypassed in this cooler until it  reaches about 150 = F)............I have

over 60,000 miles on this = conversion...............FWIW

 

=

Kelly = Troyer

On = Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> = wrote:

Gordon,

     Unless you used = a  pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the trans cooler = part of an auto

radiator this would not work very = well.............Besides being very restrictive (not designed for = the

volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these = in-radiator trans coolers were not designed for = the

pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system = (plus auto trans oil is about 10 wt as opposed to 40 = to

50 wt = typically use in flying 13B = engines)....................IMHO

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

=

Kelly = Troyer

Dyke = Delta JD2 (in progress)

13B/Turbo  =

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, = Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com> = wrote:

Yes, I'm = running two 13Bs.  One rule of thumb I use is for a typical = gas
engine, the total fuel energy is distributed roughly 1/3 to the = shaft, 1/3
to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust.  Assuming an = even 200 HP shaft power,
that puts approximately 200 HP =3D 510,000 = BTU/hr into the coolant.  I don't
know how this distribution = changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine.  My
approach is to = look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughly
the same = shaft power as the 13B and see how it works.

That aside, I noted = that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at
integrate an = oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. =  This
strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area = to oil cooler area
works for the distribution of cooling load in the = coolant vs. the engine
oil.  Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling = load is in the oil, as a starting
point, I will look for a radiator = that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated to
oil cooling.  In the = end, I will have to test is and see.

Thanks for the = input.


Gordon C. Alling, Jr., = PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.

540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:13 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators

Bill,

I = don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3 = rule
probably doesn't apply.  I have no idea what the water-oil = ratio of is
for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available = somewhere on
the internet.

Mark

On 3/7/12, William = Jepson <wrjjrs@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gordon, the = oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard
> = I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are = lots
of
> "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically = about 3 ci of heat exchanger per
hp.
> That would be divided = 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes
things
> = dramatically but that is a start.
> Bill Jepson
> On Mar 7, = 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" <gordon@acumen-ea.com> = wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B = Defiant.  I've noted some
>> automotive radiators = integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling with
the
>> = engine coolant heat exchanger.  Has anyone looked at these as a = means of
>> integrating the oil and water cooler for an = aircraft application?  Does
>> anyone have an estimate of = the oil and transmission heat load in a
typical
>> GMC 4.3 L =  Jimmy?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> = Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE****
>>
>> = President****
>>
>> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, = Inc.*****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> 540-786-2200****
>>
>> www.acumen-ea.com****
>>
>> ** = **
>>
>

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml


--
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--
Kelly = Troyer
Dyke = Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2=




-- =
Kelly Troyer
Dyke = Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2=

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