X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.213.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5432629 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:24:02 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by yenl4 with SMTP id l4so3272749yen.25 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=TJnjdEwOfFOR8e5EwHRWBfkU1CBQgjbWhc9tTdT/Gig=; b=iJR0c30qd7Q80YPnjNi899lWvVLJqnutnTXw+1nC3sN8K7Tk9RJ4cfrhCnnLJYH20I 6JdB8vEaZUzhvjBbQ/cA6CaqXLIiSJMUythXs9mFfNYU8cw7Hf5s2rtLCKLQi+YwgKjh dzkZScxgEhloEZq6vaX5wDa6vvO+aNUfZrGVYY26bcsoqwFwlcF7AL2w0qxuSKONGbnr nbZfpDN/FNeqypZAUJoqqqHHdZY+MUiSLhnrKwrIGBeMzBkH1fID40TCcV6UYkbpPVgK W3xAqZ0CRGUMt1smb0na86T8JHpUQrZjCoz70er3/7jb37V6/++craAHXYGioWqtjwzT xIAg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.6.164 with SMTP id c4mr1727557oea.43.1331155406997; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.165.67 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:23:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 15:23:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f83ab7d2cca1e04baadc508 --e89a8f83ab7d2cca1e04baadc508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Gordon, As a point of interest I have a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (13B from this car is going in my Dyke Delta) with a 2004R Turbo/Hydro auto trans.............I am using the stock RX7 auto radiator oil cooler and also sending trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is bypassed in this cooler until it reaches about 150 F)............I have over 60,000 miles on this conversion...............FWIW Kelly Troyer On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Gordon, > Unless you used a pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the > trans cooler part of an auto > radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very > restrictive (not designed for the > volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans coolers > were not designed for the > pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about 10 > wt as opposed to 40 to > 50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO > > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress) > 13B/Turbo > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gordon Alling wrote: > >> Yes, I'm running two 13Bs. One rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas >> engine, the total fuel energy is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft, 1/3 >> to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. Assuming an even 200 HP shaft >> power, >> that puts approximately 200 HP = 510,000 BTU/hr into the coolant. I don't >> know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine. My >> approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughly >> the same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works. >> >> That aside, I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking >> at >> integrate an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. This >> strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler >> area >> works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engine >> oil. Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil, as a starting >> point, I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated >> to >> oil cooling. In the end, I will have to test is and see. >> >> Thanks for the input. >> >> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE >> President >> acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. >> >> 540-786-2200 >> www.acumen-ea.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On >> Behalf Of Mark Steitle >> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:13 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators >> >> Bill, >> >> I don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3 rule >> probably doesn't apply. I have no idea what the water-oil ratio of is >> for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available somewhere on >> the internet. >> >> Mark >> >> On 3/7/12, William Jepson wrote: >> > Gordon, the oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard >> > I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lots >> of >> > "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about 3 ci of heat exchanger per >> hp. >> > That would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes >> things >> > dramatically but that is a start. >> > Bill Jepson >> > On Mar 7, 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" wrote: >> > >> >> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. I've noted some >> >> automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling with >> the >> >> engine coolant heat exchanger. Has anyone looked at these as a means >> of >> >> integrating the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application? Does >> >> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in a >> typical >> >> GMC 4.3 L Jimmy?**** >> >> >> >> ** ** >> >> >> >> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE**** >> >> >> >> President**** >> >> >> >> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.***** >> >> >> >> ** ** >> >> >> >> 540-786-2200**** >> >> >> >> www.acumen-ea.com**** >> >> >> >> ** ** >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --e89a8f83ab7d2cca1e04baadc508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0Gordon,
=A0=A0=A0 As a point of interest I have a 4.3 Chev V-6 in my 88 RX7 (1= 3B from this car is going in my Dyke Delta) with
a =A02004R=A0 Turbo/Hydro auto trans.............I am using the stock = RX7 auto radiator oil cooler and also sending
trans oil through the RX7 oil cooler (oil is bypassed in this cooler= =A0until it=A0 reaches about 150 F)............I have
over 60,000 miles on this conversion...............FWIW
=A0
Kelly Troyer
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com= > wrote:
Gordon,
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Unless you used a=A0 pressure restricted bypass of engine= oil to the trans cooler part of an auto
radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very = restrictive (not designed for the
volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans cooler= s were not designed for the
pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about= 10 wt as opposed to 40 to
50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO
=A0
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress)
13B/Turbo=A0=A0

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com> wrote:
Yes, I'm running two 13Bs. =A0One= rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas
engine, the total fuel energy = is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft, 1/3
to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. =A0Assuming an even 200 HP shaft pow= er,
that puts approximately 200 HP =3D 510,000 BTU/hr into the coolant. = =A0I don't
know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a pis= ton engine. =A0My
approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughlythe same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works.

That aside, = I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at
integrat= e an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. =A0This
strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area=
works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engin= e
oil. =A0Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil, as a star= ting
point, I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated t= o
oil cooling. =A0In the end, I will have to test is and see.

Tha= nks for the input.

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analy= sis, Inc.

540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:= flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, Mar= ch 07, 2012 3:13 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators

= Bill,

I don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3= rule
probably doesn't apply. =A0I have no idea what the water-oil r= atio of is
for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available somewhere onthe internet.

Mark

On 3/7/12, William Jepson <wrjjrs@gmail.com> wrote:=
> Gordon, the oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard=
> I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There ar= e lots
of
> "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about= 3 ci of heat exchanger per
hp.
> That would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting ch= anges
things
> dramatically but that is a start.
> Bill Jeps= on
> On Mar 7, 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" <gordon@acumen-ea.com>= ; wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. =A0I&= #39;ve noted some
>> automotive radiators integrate oil and transm= ission fluid cooling with
the
>> engine coolant heat exchanger.= =A0Has anyone looked at these as a means of
>> integrating the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application? = =A0Does
>> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission hea= t load in a
typical
>> GMC 4.3 L =A0Jimmy?****
>>
&= gt;> ** **
>>
>> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE****
>>
>> = President****
>>
>> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.*= ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> 540-786-2200****<= br> >>
>> www.acumen-ea.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
&g= t;

--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/= flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC= 2_EM2



--
Ke= lly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--e89a8f83ab7d2cca1e04baadc508--