X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5432602 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 15:48:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so7411833obb.25 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=cWqYC/kDc3RPDpbWgvBbValzumMDEerdb8nmX4ubycQ=; b=A11Yp12cuO1RBSpoilk8ZwoRnFEk8ZnjmBTkq6IRkQqQqyTYdfxzkTCD/r+AJJmLS1 O7uIyNWsuuKFhx3h0vmKLr66CrfUSCCJ0FrzhwE9SN0yz2rm0KSA3oujFYBYBbfqqOOl g5H6oR2yYxnTrG3DErZe2yuHuRRx1gwknKqR+PlmZtRfrFKWDGWpLreOinhqHIfD/Gbh ISb4gIcyZMDFl6NKV/WgD83me6I/nTEJh2eAUxNccM4zU5dVb1IwvDxZCHj2j/WQH61G eEtHtWbZLdH22IbdwBBCms4DdaTJsUkrrtOn1Ciw9o5kzLvqG+vOYlBepKk5sNztWPGE gLcQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.44.10 with SMTP id a10mr1303647obm.43.1331153246481; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.165.67 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:47:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:47:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044785ab65ec8c04baad449f --f46d044785ab65ec8c04baad449f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Gordon, Unless you used a pressure restricted bypass of engine oil to the trans cooler part of an auto radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very restrictive (not designed for the volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans coolers were not designed for the pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about 10 wt as opposed to 40 to 50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress) 13B/Turbo On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gordon Alling wrote: > Yes, I'm running two 13Bs. One rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas > engine, the total fuel energy is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft, 1/3 > to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. Assuming an even 200 HP shaft > power, > that puts approximately 200 HP = 510,000 BTU/hr into the coolant. I don't > know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a piston engine. My > approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughly > the same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works. > > That aside, I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at > integrate an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. This > strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area > works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engine > oil. Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil, as a starting > point, I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated > to > oil cooling. In the end, I will have to test is and see. > > Thanks for the input. > > Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE > President > acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. > > 540-786-2200 > www.acumen-ea.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Mark Steitle > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:13 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators > > Bill, > > I don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3 rule > probably doesn't apply. I have no idea what the water-oil ratio of is > for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available somewhere on > the internet. > > Mark > > On 3/7/12, William Jepson wrote: > > Gordon, the oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard > > I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lots > of > > "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about 3 ci of heat exchanger per > hp. > > That would be divided 2/3 water and 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes > things > > dramatically but that is a start. > > Bill Jepson > > On Mar 7, 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" wrote: > > > >> I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. I've noted some > >> automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling with > the > >> engine coolant heat exchanger. Has anyone looked at these as a means of > >> integrating the oil and water cooler for an aircraft application? Does > >> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in a > typical > >> GMC 4.3 L Jimmy?**** > >> > >> ** ** > >> > >> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE**** > >> > >> President**** > >> > >> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.***** > >> > >> ** ** > >> > >> 540-786-2200**** > >> > >> www.acumen-ea.com**** > >> > >> ** ** > >> > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --f46d044785ab65ec8c04baad449f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gordon,
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Unless you used a=A0 pressure restricted bypass of engine= oil to the trans cooler part of an auto
radiator this would not work very well.............Besides being very = restrictive (not designed for the
volume of oil flow that a 13B puts out) these in-radiator trans cooler= s were not designed for the
pulsating pressure of the 13B oil system (plus auto trans oil is about= 10 wt as opposed to 40 to
50 wt typically use in flying 13B engines)....................IMHO
=A0
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta JD2 (in progress)
13B/Turbo=A0=A0

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-e= a.com> wrote:
Yes, I'm running two 13Bs. =A0One= rule of thumb I use is for a typical gas
engine, the total fuel energy = is distributed roughly 1/3 to the shaft, 1/3
to the coolant and 1/3 to the exhaust. =A0Assuming an even 200 HP shaft pow= er,
that puts approximately 200 HP =3D 510,000 BTU/hr into the coolant. = =A0I don't
know how this distribution changes for a rotary vs. a pis= ton engine. =A0My
approach is to look for an automotive radiator for an engine with roughlythe same shaft power as the 13B and see how it works.

That aside, = I noted that several of the auto radiators that I am looking at
integrat= e an oil cooler for transmission fluid and/or engine oil. =A0This
strikes me as rather slick if the ratio of radiator area to oil cooler area=
works for the distribution of cooling load in the coolant vs. the engin= e
oil. =A0Assuming that 1/3 of the cooling load is in the oil, as a star= ting
point, I will look for a radiator that has 1/3 of its face area dedicated t= o
oil cooling. =A0In the end, I will have to test is and see.

Tha= nks for the input.

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acum= en Engineering/Analysis, Inc.

540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in airc= raft [mailto:flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, March 07= , 2012 3:13 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Radiators

= Bill,

I don't think Gordon is running a rotary, so the 2/3 - 1/3= rule
probably doesn't apply. =A0I have no idea what the water-oil r= atio of is
for a 4.3L Chevy V-6, but I'd bet that info is available somewhere onthe internet.

Mark

On 3/7/12, William Jepson <wrjjrs@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gordon, t= he oil cooling required in a rotary is higher than a standard
> I.c.e. The oil cooling is about 1/3 of the total cooling. There are lo= ts
of
> "rules of thumb" on cooling. Typically about 3 c= i of heat exchanger per
hp.
> That would be divided 2/3 water and = 1/3 oil cooling. Ducting changes
things
> dramatically but that is a start.
> Bill Jepson
>= ; On Mar 7, 2012 7:20 AM, "Gordon Alling" <gordon@acumen-ea.com> wrote:
>
>>= ; I'm thinking about radiators for my 13B Defiant. =A0I've noted so= me
>> automotive radiators integrate oil and transmission fluid cooling = with
the
>> engine coolant heat exchanger. =A0Has anyone looked= at these as a means of
>> integrating the oil and water cooler fo= r an aircraft application? =A0Does
>> anyone have an estimate of the oil and transmission heat load in a=
typical
>> GMC 4.3 L =A0Jimmy?****
>>
>> ** = **
>>
>> Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE****
>>
>= ;> President****
>>
>> *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.*****
>><= br>>> ** **
>>
>> 540-786-2200****
>>
>> www.acumen-ea.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>

--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.= com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.n= et:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



--
Kelly Troye= r
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--f46d044785ab65ec8c04baad449f--