X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omta.toronto.rmgopenwave.com ([4.59.182.110] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5426927 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 15:50:06 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=4.59.182.110; envelope-from=lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca Received: from torspm04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com ([142.167.187.136]) by tormtz04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com (InterMail vM.8.01.04.04 201-2260-137-107-20110204) with ESMTP id <20120303204930.YCWE7956.tormtz04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com@torspm04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com> for ; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:49:30 -0500 Received: from PCdeRita ([142.167.187.136]) by torspm04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com with SMTP id <20120303204929.EGUZ4564.torspm04.toronto.rmgopenwave.com@PCdeRita> for ; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 15:49:29 -0500 Message-ID: <6DECCEE7FCC14091BD2332899F366D8A@PCdeRita> From: "Rino" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 16:49:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A8_01CCF95D.8C011E20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-Opwv-CommTouchExtSvcRefID: str=0001.0A020201.4F5283DA.0098,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01CCF95D.8C011E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use the same, Valvoline in my Renesis because it is the only oil that = does NOT spit through the vent. I run the engine at 6500 max rpm. Rino Lacombe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 2:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Last oil change I switched to valvoline racing synthetic 20-50. It's = advertised as high zinc. I believe Tracy recently recommended a 50W oil = for the gearbox. I'm seeing higher than expected wear at the 1mm thrust = bearing spacer. Hopefully the heavier oil will help. Bobby=20 Sent from my iPad On Mar 3, 2012, at 9:46 AM, "Gordon Alling" = wrote: All, What is everyone using for oil in their 13Bs? It appears that the = shop manual specifies 10W30 or 5W30 (for cold weather). Are people = flying regular motor oil or are you all flying aviation oil (aeroshell, = or equivalent)? Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. I still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it.=20 The Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system = when cold.=20 Where coolant is free to move through only the engine block during = warm up. This keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from = growing too big on the hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm = quickly so the total HC is low enough to sell the cars in the Peoples = Republic of California. In a conventional system, most thermostats have a little bubble = valve and that allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the = engine and pull some coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm = up last longer than is good practice. In the Mazda version the = thermostat from the Rube Goldberg shops has a conventional looking top = to block coolant from leaving to the radiator, and a plug valve that is = open when cold to divert coolant around only inside the block. When the = coolant warms the top opens and the plug valve closes off the bypass = port in the pump body forcing coolant out the norice to the radiator.=20 You can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve = hole) for a pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat.=20 I use a 160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled around = the perimeter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just = reducing power allows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the = engine. On very cold days, the thermostat never opens and the engine = cools only through the 3 holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those = days we taped off much of the radiator. We have a big radiator. The rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air = bubbles to use to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it = the most. It can run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you = rev it up for say a race start, or a take off, zoom there go the bubbles = swept along to the suction side of the pump, followed by no more pumping = and then no more engine. All of this is the same as any engine, however = the rotary has the water pump mounted very high on the block where the = bubbles can have the maximum effect on producing cavitation.=20 All of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the = engineering for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire = wall (plastic crap that no American relief cap fits very well) has the = pressure cap on it. The cap on the radiator is just a lid to seal the = radiator and has no pressure relief function. Bubbles popping to the top = of the radiator are forced up the hose to the pressure bottle, then pop = to the surface inside the bottle. With any pressure reduction inside the = block, resulting in only pure coolant returning to the block. The = pressure bottle need only be filled to 2/3 capacity allowing a = compressible air volume on top of the coolant. After 3 heat cycles you = will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will be in the block and = the recovered air will be in the bottle. Works great. Works every time. = Designed by Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and even Ford racing = engines and airplanes.=20 This was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an Accumulator. These are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble = removal and as a back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a = specific pressure. As in 3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in = airplanes. The make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will = fit an American style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) = Consult you radiator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and = thinner is better. Hose to the radiator top out the lowest point in the = bottle. Cap accessible so you can top off the coolant. The actual = location of the make up bottle is not at all important. It need not be = the highest item in the coolant system. The hose needs to be about 1/8" = in ID however.=20 In the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the = passenger floor, and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar = in every race car I ever built. Never a cooling problem.=20 If you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the = open position. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol = in the bellows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. = They do not die slowly in order to give you a warning.=20 Many racers use restrictions in the water outlet to limit flow rate = to the radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to = flow and not the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring = inside the radiator. Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and hose is = much larger than the top (high pressure) hose. Notice also that the = bottom hose has an internal support spring installed to prevent = collapse. Deduce then that it is possible to collapse the bottom hose = via a dynamic pressure difference between the water pump outlet and the = water pump inlet even though the pressure cap is in place an fully = functional. They (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm = while listening to the bottom radiator hose through a stethoscope, you will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends.=20 Notice that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator = hose to and from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still = it works. All of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thick = restrictor. And still it works. For low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is = probably of no value.=20 Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, = cbarber@texasattorney.net writes: I have been searching the archives but to scant successes = regarding thermostats use or lack of use for cooling.=20 I have been having issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to = idle on the ramp for over an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with = adequate cooling. However, lately temps are rising faster and higher.=20 Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted that after = about a ten minute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant temp = probes was reading about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo = gage, close to what was being indicated on the panel However, the top = of the radiator was cool to the touch. The handheld thermo gage read 45 = degrees. Ok. Seems to be a flow/thermostat/pump issue. I will be = Looking into this ASAP.=20 This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I know = some do not use them.=20 It is my understanding that if you remove the thermostat you have = to close some passage off. What passage is this and why does this need = to be done. Also, what is the accepted method.=20 While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. = While I am not considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed = drilling holes in the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my = interest.=20 It seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I = saw it. I just finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion = manual to no avail and my archive search is giving me hundreds of = returns.=20 Thanks,=20 Chris ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01CCF95D.8C011E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I use the same, Valvoline in my Renesis = because it=20 is the only oil that does NOT  spit through the vent.  I run = the=20 engine at 6500 max rpm.
 
Rino Lacombe
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bobby J. = Hughes=20
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 = 2:57=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Thermostats.

Last oil change I switched to valvoline racing synthetic 20-50. = It's=20 advertised as high zinc. I believe Tracy recently recommended a 50W = oil for=20 the gearbox. I'm seeing higher than expected wear at the 1mm thrust = bearing=20 spacer. Hopefully the heavier oil will help.

Bobby 



Sent from my iPad

On Mar 3, 2012, at 9:46 AM, "Gordon Alling" <gordon@acumen-ea.com>=20 wrote:

All,

What=20 is everyone using for oil in their 13Bs?  It appears that the shop = manual=20 specifies 10W30 or 5W30 (for cold weather).  Are people flying regular = motor oil=20 or are you all flying aviation oil (aeroshell, or=20 equivalent)?

Gordon=20 C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com=

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, = 2012 3:23=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: = Thermostats.

I=20 still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it.=20

The=20 Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system when = cold.=20

Where=20 coolant is free to move through only the engine block during warm = up. This=20 keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from growing too = big on the=20 hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm quickly so the = total HC is=20 low enough to sell the cars in the Peoples Republic of=20 California.

In=20 a conventional system, most thermostats have a little bubble = valve and=20 that allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the engine and = pull=20 some coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm up last = longer than=20 is good practice. In the Mazda version the thermostat from the Rube = Goldberg=20 shops has a conventional looking top to block coolant from leaving = to the=20 radiator, and a plug valve that is open when cold to divert coolant = around=20 only inside the block. When the coolant warms the top opens and the = plug=20 valve closes off the bypass port in the pump body forcing coolant = out the=20 norice to the radiator.

You=20 can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve = hole) for a=20 pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat.=20

I=20 use a 160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled = around=20 the perimeter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just = reducing=20 power allows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the = engine. On=20 very cold days, the thermostat never opens and the engine cools only = through=20 the 3 holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those days we taped off = much of=20 the radiator. We have a big = radiator.

The=20 rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air = bubbles to use=20 to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it the most. = It can=20 run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you rev it up for = say a=20 race start, or a take off, zoom there go the bubbles swept along to = the=20 suction side of the pump, followed by no more pumping and then no = more=20 engine. All of this is the same as any engine, however the rotary = has the=20 water pump mounted very high on the block where the bubbles can have = the=20 maximum effect on producing cavitation. =

All=20 of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the = engineering=20 for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire wall = (plastic crap=20 that no American relief cap fits very well) has the pressure cap on = it. The=20 cap on the radiator is just a lid to seal the radiator and has no = pressure=20 relief function. Bubbles popping to the top of the radiator are = forced up=20 the hose to the pressure bottle, then pop to the surface inside the = bottle.=20 With any pressure reduction inside the block, resulting in only pure = coolant=20 returning to the block. The pressure bottle need only be filled to = 2/3=20 capacity allowing a compressible air volume on top of the coolant. = After 3=20 heat cycles you will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will = be in=20 the block and the recovered air will be in the bottle. Works great. = Works=20 every time. Designed by Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and = even Ford=20 racing engines and airplanes.

This=20 was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an=20 Accumulator.

These=20 are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble removal = and as a=20 back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a specific pressure. = As in=20 3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in=20 airplanes.

The=20 make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will fit an = American style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) Consult = you=20 radiator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and thinner is = better.=20 Hose to the radiator top out the lowest point in the bottle. Cap = accessible=20 so you can top off the coolant. The actual location of the make up = bottle is=20 not at all important. It need not be the highest item in the coolant = system.=20 The hose needs to be about 1/8" in ID however.=20

In=20 the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the = passenger floor,=20 and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar in every race = car I=20 ever built. Never a cooling problem.=20

If=20 you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the open = position. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol = in the=20 bellows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. = They do=20 not die slowly in order to give you a warning.=20

Many=20 racers use restrictions in the water outlet to limit flow rate = to the=20 radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to flow = and not=20 the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring inside the = radiator.=20 Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and hose is much larger than = the top=20 (high pressure) hose. Notice also that the bottom hose has an = internal=20 support spring installed to prevent collapse. Deduce then that it is = possible to collapse the bottom hose via a dynamic pressure = difference=20 between the water pump outlet and the water pump inlet even though = the=20 pressure cap is in place an fully=20 functional.

They=20 (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm while = listening to the bottom radiator hose through a=20 stethoscope,

you=20 will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends.=20

Notice=20 that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator hose = to and=20 from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still it=20 works.

All=20 of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thick = restrictor.=20 And still it works.

For=20 low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is probably of = no=20 value.

Lynn=20 E. Hanover

In=20 a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net=20 writes:

I=20 have been searching the archives but to scant successes regarding=20 thermostats use or lack of use for cooling.

I have been = having=20 issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to idle on the ramp = for over=20 an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with adequate cooling. = However,=20 lately temps are rising faster and higher.

Yesterday, = while=20 troubleshooting this issue I noted that after about a ten minute = taxi that=20 the mounting location of my coolant temp probes was reading about = 220=20 degrees measured with a handheld thermo gage, close to what was = being=20 indicated on the panel  However, the top of the radiator was = cool to=20 the touch. The handheld thermo gage read 45 degrees.   = Ok. Seems=20 to be a flow/thermostat/pump issue. I will be Looking into this = ASAP.=20

This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I = know=20 some do not use them.

It is my understanding that if you = remove=20 the thermostat you have to close some passage off. What passage is = this=20 and why does this need to be done. Also, what is the accepted = method.=20

While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive = plates.=20 While I am not considering a restrictive plate, the thread = discussed=20 drilling holes in the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it = caught my=20 interest.

It seems this is something I use to know but now = forget=20 where I saw it. I just finished reviewing my partial scan of = Tracy's=20 conversion manual to no avail and my archive search is giving me = hundreds=20 of returns.

Thanks,

Chris

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