X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5426818 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 13:37:27 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE (unverified [172.16.5.24]) by VIRCOM1.fcdata.private (Vircom SMTPRS 5.1.1024.13396) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:36:30 -0600 X-Modus-BlackList: 172.16.5.24=OK;cbarber@texasattorney.net=OK X-Modus-RBL: 172.16.5.24=Excluded X-Modus-Trusted: 172.16.5.24=NO X-Modus-Audit: FALSE;0;0;0 Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%13]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:36:31 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Thread-Index: AQHM+WhyCWHmO9EU0EWHWjeUpMciuJZY5I28 Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:36:35 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30F053D2C6@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [99.98.105.202] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30F053D2C6FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30F053D2C6FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like John, I broke in with Dino Oil, but then I filled it with Royal Purple= 50. (pretty bottle...good basis for my choice, huh...Ok, I hear good thing= s about it too) I think Mazdatrix recommends against synthetic, however, I believe there re= ason is that the synthetic does not burn, or burn well, when being used to = lube the apex seal when using oil injection from the oil pan. However, in = most aviation uses, we are adding two stroke oil to the fuel, thus not an i= ssue for us. So, it may be a nice improvement to run the "better" synthetic= stuff. Also, IIRC, the conventional wisdom is to run the cheapest 2 stroke oil in = the fuel since it is enough to do the job and it is just burning off anyway= . I have heard of good prices by the gallon at Wall-Mart (of course I neve= r think of it until I need it and the buy whatever is convenient at the par= ts store....) Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = John Slade [jslade@canardaviation.com] Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:06 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Mobil 1 10W30 after break-in with dino oil On 3/3/2012 10:46 AM, Gordon Alling wrote: All, What is everyone using for oil in their 13Bs? It appears that the shop man= ual specifies 10W30 or 5W30 (for cold weather). Are people flying regular = motor oil or are you all flying aviation oil (aeroshell, or equivalent)? Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Lehanover@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. I still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it. The Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system when cold= . Where coolant is free to move through only the engine block during warm up.= This keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from growing too big= on the hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm quickly so the tot= al HC is low enough to sell the cars in the Peoples Republic of California. In a conventional system, most thermostats have a little bubble valve and t= hat allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the engine and pull so= me coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm up last longer than is= good practice. In the Mazda version the thermostat from the Rube Goldberg = shops has a conventional looking top to block coolant from leaving to the r= adiator, and a plug valve that is open when cold to divert coolant around o= nly inside the block. When the coolant warms the top opens and the plug val= ve closes off the bypass port in the pump body forcing coolant out the nori= ce to the radiator. You can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve hole) f= or a pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat. I use a 160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled around the peri= meter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just reducing power al= lows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the engine. On very col= d days, the thermostat never opens and the engine cools only through the 3 = holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those days we taped off much of the r= adiator. We have a big radiator. The rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air bubbles t= o use to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it the most. It= can run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you rev it up for say= a race start, or a take off, zoom there go the bubbles swept along to the = suction side of the pump, followed by no more pumping and then no more engi= ne. All of this is the same as any engine, however the rotary has the water= pump mounted very high on the block where the bubbles can have the maximum= effect on producing cavitation. All of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the engine= ering for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire wall (plast= ic crap that no American relief cap fits very well) has the pressure cap on= it. The cap on the radiator is just a lid to seal the radiator and has no = pressure relief function. Bubbles popping to the top of the radiator are fo= rced up the hose to the pressure bottle, then pop to the surface inside the= bottle. With any pressure reduction inside the block, resulting in only pu= re coolant returning to the block. The pressure bottle need only be filled = to 2/3 capacity allowing a compressible air volume on top of the coolant. A= fter 3 heat cycles you will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will = be in the block and the recovered air will be in the bottle. Works great. W= orks every time. Designed by Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and eve= n Ford racing engines and airplanes. This was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an Accumulator. These are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble removal and= as a back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a specific pressure. A= s in 3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in airplanes. The make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will fit an Am= erican style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) Consult you radi= ator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and thinner is better. Hose = to the radiator top out the lowest point in the bottle. Cap accessible so y= ou can top off the coolant. The actual location of the make up bottle is no= t at all important. It need not be the highest item in the coolant system. = The hose needs to be about 1/8" in ID however. In the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the passenger fl= oor, and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar in every race ca= r I ever built. Never a cooling problem. If you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the open pos= ition. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol in the bel= lows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. They do not = die slowly in order to give you a warning. Many racers use restrictions in the water outlet to limit flow rate to the = radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to flow and not= the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring inside the radiator= . Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and hose is much larger than the t= op (high pressure) hose. Notice also that the bottom hose has an internal s= upport spring installed to prevent collapse. Deduce then that it is possibl= e to collapse the bottom hose via a dynamic pressure difference between the= water pump outlet and the water pump inlet even though the pressure cap is= in place an fully functional. They (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm while l= istening to the bottom radiator hose through a stethoscope, you will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends. Notice that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator hose t= o and from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still it works. All of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thick restricto= r. And still it works. For low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is probably of no= value. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cbarber@t= exasattorney.net writes: I have been searching the archives but to scant successes regarding thermos= tats use or lack of use for cooling. I have been having issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to idle on t= he ramp for over an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with adequate co= oling. However, lately temps are rising faster and higher. Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted that after about a ten = minute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant temp probes was readin= g about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo gage, close to what was= being indicated on the panel However, the top of the radiator was cool to= the touch. The handheld thermo gage read 45 degrees. Ok. Seems to be a f= low/thermostat/pump issue. I will be Looking into this ASAP. This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I know some do not= use them. It is my understanding that if you remove the thermostat you have to close = some passage off. What passage is this and why does this need to be done. A= lso, what is the accepted method. While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. While I am n= ot considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling holes in = the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest. It seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I saw it. I j= ust finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no a= vail and my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns. Thanks, Chris --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30F053D2C6FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Like John, I broke in with Dino Oil, but then I filled it with Royal Pur= ple 50. (pretty bottle...good basis for my choice, huh...Ok, I hear good th= ings about it too)

 

I think Mazdatrix recommends against= synthetic, however, I believe there reason is that the synthetic do= es not burn, or burn well, when being used to lube the apex seal when using= oil injection from the oil pan.  However, in most aviation uses, we are adding two stroke oil to the fuel, thus not an issue= for us. So, it may be a nice improvement to run the "better" syn= thetic stuff.

 

Also, IIRC, the conventional wisdom is to run = the cheapest 2 stroke oil in the fuel since it is enough to do the job and = it is just burning off anyway.  I have heard of good prices by the gal= lon at Wall-Mart (of course I never think of it until I need it and the buy whatever is convenient at th= e parts store....)

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of John Slade [jslade@canardaviation.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:06 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats.

Mobil 1 10W30 after break-in with dino oil

On 3/3/2012 10:46 AM, Gordon Alling wrote:

= All,

=  

= What is everyone using for oil in their 13Bs?  It appears that the shop manual specifies 10W30 or 5W30 (for cold we= ather).  Are people flying regular motor oil or are you all flying aviation o= il (aeroshell, or equivalent)?<= /p>

=  

= Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE

= President

acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.

=  

= 540-786-2200

= www.acumen-ea.com

=  

From: Rotary motors in aircr= aft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, = 2012 3:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Th= ermostats.

 

I still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it.

 

The Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system when co= ld.

 

Where coolant is free to move through only the engine block during warm u= p. This keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from growing too b= ig on the hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm quickly so the total HC is low enough to sell the cars in = the Peoples Republic of California.

 

In a conventional system, most thermostats have a little bubble valv= e and that allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the engine and = pull some coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm up last longer than is good practice. In the Mazda version = the thermostat from the Rube Goldberg shops has a conventional looking top = to block coolant from leaving to the radiator, and a plug valve that is ope= n when cold to divert coolant around only inside the block. When the coolant warms the top opens and the plug v= alve closes off the bypass port in the pump body forcing coolant out the no= rice to the radiator.

 

You can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve hole)= for a pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat.

 

I use a 160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drille= d around the perimeter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just = reducing power allows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the engine. On very cold days, the thermostat never opens and the = engine cools only through the 3 holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those= days we taped off much of the radiator. We have a big radiator.

 

The rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air bubbles= to use to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it the most. = It can run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you rev it up for say a race start, or a take off, zoom the= re go the bubbles swept along to the suction side of the pump, followed by = no more pumping and then no more engine. All of this is the same as any eng= ine, however the rotary has the water pump mounted very high on the block where the bubbles can have the m= aximum effect on producing cavitation.

 

All of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the engi= neering for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire wall (pla= stic crap that no American relief cap fits very well) has the pressure cap on it. The cap on the radiator is just a l= id to seal the radiator and has no pressure relief function. Bubbles poppin= g to the top of the radiator are forced up the hose to the pressure bottle,= then pop to the surface inside the bottle. With any pressure reduction inside the block, resulting in onl= y pure coolant returning to the block. The pressure bottle need only be fil= led to 2/3 capacity allowing a compressible air volume on top of the coolan= t. After 3 heat cycles you will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will be in the block and the rec= overed air will be in the bottle. Works great. Works every time. Designed b= y Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and even Ford racing engines and a= irplanes.

 

This was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an Accumulator.

These are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble removal a= nd as a back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a specific pressure.= As in 3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in airplanes.

 

The make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will fit an = American style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) Consult you ra= diator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and thinner is better. Hose to the radiator top out the lowest poin= t in the bottle. Cap accessible so you can top off the coolant. The actual = location of the make up bottle is not at all important. It need not be the = highest item in the coolant system. The hose needs to be about 1/8" in ID however.

In the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the passenger = floor, and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar in every race = car I ever built. Never a cooling problem.

 

If you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the open p= osition. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol in the b= ellows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. They do not die slowly in order to give you a = warning.

 

Many racers use restrictions in the water outlet to limit flow rate = to the radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to flow = and not the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring inside the radiator. Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and = hose is much larger than the top (high pressure) hose. Notice also that the= bottom hose has an internal support spring installed to prevent collapse. = Deduce then that it is possible to collapse the bottom hose via a dynamic pressure difference between the = water pump outlet and the water pump inlet even though the pressure cap is = in place an fully functional.

 

They (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm while= listening to the bottom radiator hose through a stethoscope,=

you will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends.

 

Notice that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator= hose to and from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still it = works.

All of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thi= ck restrictor. And still it works.

 

For low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is probably of = no value.

 

Lynn E. Hanover

 

 

 

In a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:

I have been searching the archives but to s= cant successes regarding thermostats use or lack of use for cooling.

I have been having issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to idle on t= he ramp for over an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with adequate co= oling. However, lately temps are rising faster and higher.

Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted that after about a ten = minute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant temp probes was readin= g about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo gage, close to what was= being indicated on the panel  However, the top of the radiator was cool to the touch. The handheld thermo gage re= ad 45 degrees.   Ok. Seems to be a flow/thermostat/pump issue. I = will be Looking into this ASAP.

This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I know some do not= use them.

It is my understanding that if you remove the thermostat you have to close = some passage off. What passage is this and why does this need to be done. A= lso, what is the accepted method.

While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. While I am n= ot considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling holes in = the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest.

It seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I saw it. I j= ust finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no a= vail and my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns.

Thanks,

Chris


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