X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5423955 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 16:39:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so1169533obb.25 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of keltro@gmail.com designates 10.60.28.229 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.60.28.229; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of keltro@gmail.com designates 10.60.28.229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=keltro@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=keltro@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.60.28.229]) by 10.60.28.229 with SMTP id e5mr2995693oeh.63.1330637924884 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=TcChx841xt91g4uX6C9FNnKKiZHF8UDN5x3ZqDGLSUY=; b=BJtN6EdzIER53BuonwiJvbSoqJPT8C4DKM9T7YfejBkdIk9+icrlraplzZgqLKlBZj eRPmR3Ey9zEN2q2OyXxg/07RvGvFkLriL2bFA5JzvYLj2G/WiIYQ5mqagMTIFWsRq4eE 89DLkv+DGowrM8zfFVm14h9H2iZB+LAtPehRPwEJo1PS8fP76N9T6ut5Wrd5hwtMDYRP +LTA0AYW1j/JAEhrItrLetzWcdBj1N5Jmq78k1MzRDVjjd/LgPuPdCgWUJl75nzBk4WQ j8dt0AaPXP1gzZ3oXllvsc9tNkK6kEk8w4lnEB1WDHMBrNIVDmqjgcJvCoqtxHGCDAQg 0+SQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.28.229 with SMTP id e5mr2527983oeh.63.1330637924782; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.40.41 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:38:44 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P-port breakthrough From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb20564d4d29404ba3548af --e89a8fb20564d4d29404ba3548af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Mark, I have some surplus Pratt & Whitney engine spacers that may be adaptable to replace the banjo fittings of the oil injection "nuts"..........They are .383 thick x .684 OD x .383 ID (were made for 3/8" bolts)..............The 10mm banjo bolts are .393 so ID of spacers would need to be opened up slightly............They are steel and precisely made............Will send you 3 (gratis) if you think they will meet your need............Send your mailing address................ Kelly T On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Kelly, > > For ground testing I purchased some aquarium pump check valves from > Petsmart. They're not flight quality, but good enough for ground testing. > I also discovered that the oil injection "nuts" contain internal check > valves, but would require a spacer to replace the banjo fitting that is > part of that system. Those would be robust enough for flight. > > I'm currently making some changes FWF, but that's almost complete. I'll > give an update when it is finished. > > Mark > > > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >>> Tracy, >>> >>> Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. >>> I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from the >>> rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. Or, possibly only >>> use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy wrote: >>> >>>> Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. Idle MP on a PP >>>> engine will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is >>>> way out of the ball park. Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on >>>> rpm. 17" is where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise! My 20B is at >>>> even lower (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg! >>>> >>>> So, that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you >>>> ALREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP >>>> readings. I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS >>>> went bad and started leaking. >>>> >>>> If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely >>>> would NOT WORK. Have you ever tested the plumbing? Just disconnect the >>>> MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the >>>> vacuum. If not, you have a leak. >>>> >>>> Tracy >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>> >>>>> Charlie, >>>>> >>>>> The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't work >>>>> out. But so far, this looks good. >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England < >>>>> ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially >>>>>> equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each >>>>>> rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, >>>>>> with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the >>>>>> fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd expect that the computer is taking >>>>>> 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure >>>>>> to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the >>>>>> pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take >>>>>> its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> Charlie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Tracy, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. Any ideas on >>>>>> what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? >>>>>> Calibrated air bleeds? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Tracy, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of those >>>>>>> "suckers" and they're working overtime. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are >>>>>>>> "good" ie, don't leak, the MP won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port >>>>>>>> and the engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle >>>>>>>> (especially if done rapidly).. Check your throttle response to be sure >>>>>>>> the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tracy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I made a major breakthrough today. In preparation for hooking up >>>>>>>>> my new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install >>>>>>>>> check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. (For >>>>>>>>> those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide >>>>>>>>> throttle TB.) My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports >>>>>>>>> in each rotor housing. Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right >>>>>>>>> then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. >>>>>>>>> Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was >>>>>>>>> approx. 17". This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me from flying. >>>>>>>>> Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0" range. Then it >>>>>>>>> dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see >>>>>>>>> an average of all three rotors. Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) >>>>>>>>> apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for >>>>>>>>> each rotor. By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now >>>>>>>>> isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. >>>>>>>>> Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way >>>>>>>>> lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. I'll probably re-set the >>>>>>>>> EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very >>>>>>>>> beginning. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP >>>>>>>>> in the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. Your >>>>>>>>> EC-2/3 will thank you for it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> Mark, >>> >> What did you find for check valves ??.................... >> >> >> >> -- >> Kelly Troyer >> Dyke Delta_"Eventually" >> 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 >> > > -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --e89a8fb20564d4d29404ba3548af Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
=A0 I have some surplus Pratt & Whitney engine spacers that may be= adaptable to replace the banjo fittings of the oil injection
"nuts"..........They are .383 thick x=A0.684 OD x .383 ID (w= ere made for 3/8" bolts)..............The 10mm banjo bolts are .393 so= ID
of spacers would need to be opened up slightly............They are ste= el and precisely made............Will send you 3 (gratis) if
you think they will meet your need............Send your mailing addres= s................
=A0
Kelly T
=A0
=A0
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:=
Kelly,=A0=20

For ground testing I purchased some aquarium pump check valves from Pe= tsmart. =A0They're not flight quality, but good enough for ground testi= ng. =A0I also discovered that the oil injection "nuts" contain in= ternal check valves, but would require a spacer to replace the banjo fittin= g that is part of that system. =A0Those would be robust enough for flight. = =A0

I'm currently making some changes FWF, but that's almost compl= ete. =A0I'll give an update when it is finished.
Mark=20


On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Kelly Troyer <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= keltro@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. = =A0I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from= the rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. =A0Or, possibl= y only use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. =A0
Mark=20


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Still thinking about your symptoms an= d solution. =A0 Idle MP on a PP engine will normally be higher than stock b= ut your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out of the ball park.=A0 Stock is = in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm.=A0 17" is=A0 where my 13B en= gine runs at economy cruise!=A0 My 20B is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and wil= l maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg!=A0

So,=A0 that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you A= LREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP reading= s.=A0 I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went = bad and started leaking.

=A0If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely w= ould NOT WORK. =A0 Have you ever tested the plumbing?=A0 Just disconnect th= e MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the= vacuum.=A0 If not, you have a leak.

Tracy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle <= span dir=3D"ltr"><msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,=A0=20

The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't = work out. =A0But so far, this looks good.
Mark=A0=20


On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England= <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Assuming well designed intake &am= p; exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal MAP in each rotor measured = at the same intake position of each rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sens= or? Have you tried using just one, with a small air reservoir for 'iner= tial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd = expect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if the= re's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the sna= pshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume that t= here's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a user-selecta= ble point in the intake cycle, right?

Charlie=20


On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:=20
Tracy,=A0=20

OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. =A0Any ideas on = what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? = =A0Calibrated air bleeds?

Mark

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Thanks,=A0I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of t= hose "suckers" and they're working overtime.

Mark =A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like it's working for you = but if those check valves are "good" ie, don't leak,=A0 the M= P won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the engine will probabl= y bog down and die when you open the throttle (especially if done rapidly).= .=A0=A0 Check your throttle response to be sure the EC2/3 sees the true MP = when you go to WFO.

Tracy=20

=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I made a major breakthrough today. =A0In preparation for hooking up my= new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install c= heck valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. =A0(For th= ose who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide th= rottle TB.) =A0My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports i= n each rotor housing. =A0Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run righ= t then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves.= =A0Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was= approx. 17". =A0This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me f= rom flying. =A0Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0= " range. =A0Then it dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were pl= umbed the EC-2 would see an average of all three rotors. =A0Since each roto= r is 120* (crank degrees) apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be q= uite a bit different for each rotor. =A0By installing check valves in the v= acuum lines, I have now isolated each rotor from the other two and am measu= ring the lowest vacuum. =A0Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but = the mixture has gone way lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. = =A0I'll probably re-set the EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the = process over from the very beginning. =A0

I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in th= e rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. =A0Your EC-2= /3 will thank you for it. =A0

Mark






Mark,
=A0=A0=A0 What did you find for check valves ??....................



--
Kel= ly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2




--=
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2<= br> --e89a8fb20564d4d29404ba3548af--