X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com ([74.125.82.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5423047 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 08:10:50 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by werf3 with SMTP id f3so343633wer.25 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 05:10:15 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of msteitle@gmail.com designates 10.180.78.130 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.180.78.130; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of msteitle@gmail.com designates 10.180.78.130 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=msteitle@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=msteitle@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.180.78.130]) by 10.180.78.130 with SMTP id b2mr2241203wix.1.1330607415153 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 01 Mar 2012 05:10:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=UddOnA3DwUmJgsFSXIqqZeos/9KwfWX7IVT6Ju57KgQ=; b=ppPYu50FN57Ps6oyvAIn4z26t+RbQCjDdwAWM6um1G6RYcrHoptRwBNqZN3NZRar17 KmwTsKVN8+hXn0qi8f9QYCza1ZF0few+8lwysxK69mzznzMdvn8jRD2Ey0Vha8lF9IJx WmupXZ+UZXKXzF/Tyl8ii7EfqkBWuXCxIVd5U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.78.130 with SMTP id b2mr1793914wix.1.1330607414944; Thu, 01 Mar 2012 05:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.155.199 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 05:10:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:10:14 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P-port breakthrough From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043438ac4da46304ba2e2eac --f46d043438ac4da46304ba2e2eac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kelly, For ground testing I purchased some aquarium pump check valves from Petsmart. They're not flight quality, but good enough for ground testing. I also discovered that the oil injection "nuts" contain internal check valves, but would require a spacer to replace the banjo fitting that is part of that system. Those would be robust enough for flight. I'm currently making some changes FWF, but that's almost complete. I'll give an update when it is finished. Mark On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > >> Tracy, >> >> Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. >> I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from the >> rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. Or, possibly only >> use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy wrote: >> >>> Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. Idle MP on a PP >>> engine will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is >>> way out of the ball park. Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on >>> rpm. 17" is where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise! My 20B is at >>> even lower (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg! >>> >>> So, that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you >>> ALREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP >>> readings. I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS >>> went bad and started leaking. >>> >>> If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely >>> would NOT WORK. Have you ever tested the plumbing? Just disconnect the >>> MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the >>> vacuum. If not, you have a leak. >>> >>> Tracy >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>>> Charlie, >>>> >>>> The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't work out. >>>> But so far, this looks good. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England < >>>> ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially >>>>> equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each >>>>> rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, >>>>> with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the >>>>> fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd expect that the computer is taking >>>>> 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure >>>>> to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the >>>>> pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take >>>>> its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right? >>>>> >>>>> Charlie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Tracy, >>>>> >>>>> OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. Any ideas on >>>>> what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? >>>>> Calibrated air bleeds? >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Tracy, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of those >>>>>> "suckers" and they're working overtime. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are >>>>>>> "good" ie, don't leak, the MP won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port >>>>>>> and the engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle >>>>>>> (especially if done rapidly).. Check your throttle response to be sure >>>>>>> the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tracy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I made a major breakthrough today. In preparation for hooking up >>>>>>>> my new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install >>>>>>>> check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. (For >>>>>>>> those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide >>>>>>>> throttle TB.) My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports >>>>>>>> in each rotor housing. Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right >>>>>>>> then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. >>>>>>>> Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was >>>>>>>> approx. 17". This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me from flying. >>>>>>>> Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0" range. Then it >>>>>>>> dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see >>>>>>>> an average of all three rotors. Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) >>>>>>>> apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for >>>>>>>> each rotor. By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now >>>>>>>> isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. >>>>>>>> Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way >>>>>>>> lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. I'll probably re-set the >>>>>>>> EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very >>>>>>>> beginning. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in >>>>>>>> the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. Your >>>>>>>> EC-2/3 will thank you for it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> Mark, >> > What did you find for check valves ??.................... > > > > -- > Kelly Troyer > Dyke Delta_"Eventually" > 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 > --f46d043438ac4da46304ba2e2eac Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly,=A0

For ground testing I purchased some aquarium p= ump check valves from Petsmart. =A0They're not flight quality, but good= enough for ground testing. =A0I also discovered that the oil injection &qu= ot;nuts" contain internal check valves, but would require a spacer to = replace the banjo fitting that is part of that system. =A0Those would be ro= bust enough for flight. =A0

I'm currently making some changes FWF, but that'= ;s almost complete. =A0I'll give an update when it is finished.

Mark

On Wed, Feb 29, 20= 12 at 10:37 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. = =A0I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from= the rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. =A0Or, possibl= y only use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. =A0
Mark=20


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Still thinking about your symptoms an= d solution. =A0 Idle MP on a PP engine will normally be higher than stock b= ut your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out of the ball park.=A0 Stock is = in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm.=A0 17" is=A0 where my 13B en= gine runs at economy cruise!=A0 My 20B is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and wil= l maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg!=A0

So,=A0 that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you A= LREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP reading= s.=A0 I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went = bad and started leaking.

=A0If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely w= ould NOT WORK. =A0 Have you ever tested the plumbing?=A0 Just disconnect th= e MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the= vacuum.=A0 If not, you have a leak.

Tracy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle <= span dir=3D"ltr"><msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,=A0=20

The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't = work out. =A0But so far, this looks good.
Mark=A0=20


On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England= <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Assuming well designed intake &am= p; exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal MAP in each rotor measured = at the same intake position of each rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sens= or? Have you tried using just one, with a small air reservoir for 'iner= tial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd = expect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if the= re's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the sna= pshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume that t= here's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a user-selecta= ble point in the intake cycle, right?

Charlie=20


On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:=20
Tracy,=A0=20

OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. =A0Any ideas on = what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? = =A0Calibrated air bleeds?

Mark

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Thanks,=A0I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of t= hose "suckers" and they're working overtime.

Mark =A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like it's working for you = but if those check valves are "good" ie, don't leak,=A0 the M= P won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the engine will probabl= y bog down and die when you open the throttle (especially if done rapidly).= .=A0=A0 Check your throttle response to be sure the EC2/3 sees the true MP = when you go to WFO.

Tracy=20

=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I made a major breakthrough today. =A0In preparation for hooking up my= new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install c= heck valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. =A0(For th= ose who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide th= rottle TB.) =A0My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports i= n each rotor housing. =A0Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run righ= t then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves.= =A0Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was= approx. 17". =A0This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me f= rom flying. =A0Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0= " range. =A0Then it dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were pl= umbed the EC-2 would see an average of all three rotors. =A0Since each roto= r is 120* (crank degrees) apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be q= uite a bit different for each rotor. =A0By installing check valves in the v= acuum lines, I have now isolated each rotor from the other two and am measu= ring the lowest vacuum. =A0Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but = the mixture has gone way lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. = =A0I'll probably re-set the EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the = process over from the very beginning. =A0

I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in th= e rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. =A0Your EC-2= /3 will thank you for it. =A0

Mark






Mark,
=A0=A0=A0 What did you find for check valves ??....................



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C= _EC2_EM2

--f46d043438ac4da46304ba2e2eac--