X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-tul01m020-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5422575 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:38:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by obbwd18 with SMTP id wd18so232201obb.25 for ; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:37:34 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of keltro@gmail.com designates 10.182.44.10 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.182.44.10; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of keltro@gmail.com designates 10.182.44.10 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=keltro@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=keltro@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.182.44.10]) by 10.182.44.10 with SMTP id a10mr1302049obm.43.1330576654778 (num_hops = 1); Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:37:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=uUOFxvavublsIPdv4w7a0ClmzK8O/1jmY7846SrkXac=; b=dSPi8lIrsE/VU9yH9gtD34nq7j+zpCh0fbLJtfKi/NiYpFXT0XfmOdTUgCAckNCjU3 34OLmFZ9q4g1hrju7Qzulyul8QBipacgzvENYYyQfMNMqD9QGkPP+UFZk4YfiQui+5Si GF32BtuQ4zYx+crmh5BxLY6vs/1BKy+RjAJe0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.44.10 with SMTP id a10mr1115777obm.43.1330576654697; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.40.41 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:37:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:37:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P-port breakthrough From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044785abd9842004ba2704ad --f46d044785abd9842004ba2704ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Tracy, > > Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. > I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from the > rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. Or, possibly only > use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. > > Mark > > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy wrote: > >> Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. Idle MP on a PP engine >> will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out >> of the ball park. Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm. 17" >> is where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise! My 20B is at even lower >> (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg! >> >> So, that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you >> ALREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP >> readings. I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS >> went bad and started leaking. >> >> If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely would >> NOT WORK. Have you ever tested the plumbing? Just disconnect the MP line >> at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the vacuum. >> If not, you have a leak. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >>> Charlie, >>> >>> The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't work out. >>> But so far, this looks good. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England < >>> ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially >>>> equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each >>>> rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, >>>> with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the >>>> fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd expect that the computer is taking >>>> 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure >>>> to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the >>>> pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take >>>> its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right? >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> >>>> >>>> On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>> >>>> Tracy, >>>> >>>> OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. Any ideas on >>>> what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? >>>> Calibrated air bleeds? >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tracy, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of those >>>>> "suckers" and they're working overtime. >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are "good" >>>>>> ie, don't leak, the MP won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the >>>>>> engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle >>>>>> (especially if done rapidly).. Check your throttle response to be sure >>>>>> the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tracy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I made a major breakthrough today. In preparation for hooking up my >>>>>>> new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install >>>>>>> check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. (For >>>>>>> those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide >>>>>>> throttle TB.) My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports >>>>>>> in each rotor housing. Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right >>>>>>> then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. >>>>>>> Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was >>>>>>> approx. 17". This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me from flying. >>>>>>> Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0" range. Then it >>>>>>> dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see >>>>>>> an average of all three rotors. Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) >>>>>>> apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for >>>>>>> each rotor. By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now >>>>>>> isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. >>>>>>> Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way >>>>>>> lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. I'll probably re-set the >>>>>>> EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very >>>>>>> beginning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in >>>>>>> the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. Your >>>>>>> EC-2/3 will thank you for it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> Mark, > What did you find for check valves ??.................... -- Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --f46d044785abd9842004ba2704ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.co= m> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. = =A0I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from= the rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. =A0Or, possibl= y only use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. =A0
Mark=20


On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Still thinking about your symptoms an= d solution. =A0 Idle MP on a PP engine will normally be higher than stock b= ut your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out of the ball park.=A0 Stock is = in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm.=A0 17" is=A0 where my 13B en= gine runs at economy cruise!=A0 My 20B is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and wil= l maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg!=A0

So,=A0 that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you A= LREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP reading= s.=A0 I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went = bad and started leaking.

=A0If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely w= ould NOT WORK. =A0 Have you ever tested the plumbing?=A0 Just disconnect th= e MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the= vacuum.=A0 If not, you have a leak.

Tracy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle <= span dir=3D"ltr"><msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,=A0=20

The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't = work out. =A0But so far, this looks good.
Mark=A0=20


On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England= <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Assuming well designed intake &am= p; exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal MAP in each rotor measured = at the same intake position of each rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sens= or? Have you tried using just one, with a small air reservoir for 'iner= tial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd = expect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if the= re's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the sna= pshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume that t= here's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a user-selecta= ble point in the intake cycle, right?

Charlie=20


On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:=20
Tracy,=A0=20

OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. =A0Any ideas on = what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? = =A0Calibrated air bleeds?

Mark

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0=20

Thanks,=A0I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of t= hose "suckers" and they're working overtime.

Mark =A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like it's working for you = but if those check valves are "good" ie, don't leak,=A0 the M= P won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the engine will probabl= y bog down and die when you open the throttle (especially if done rapidly).= .=A0=A0 Check your throttle response to be sure the EC2/3 sees the true MP = when you go to WFO.

Tracy=20

=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I made a major breakthrough today. =A0In preparation for hooking up my= new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install c= heck valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. =A0(For th= ose who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide th= rottle TB.) =A0My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports i= n each rotor housing. =A0Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run righ= t then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves.= =A0Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was= approx. 17". =A0This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me f= rom flying. =A0Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0= " range. =A0Then it dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were pl= umbed the EC-2 would see an average of all three rotors. =A0Since each roto= r is 120* (crank degrees) apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be q= uite a bit different for each rotor. =A0By installing check valves in the v= acuum lines, I have now isolated each rotor from the other two and am measu= ring the lowest vacuum. =A0Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but = the mixture has gone way lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. = =A0I'll probably re-set the EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the = process over from the very beginning. =A0

I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in th= e rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. =A0Your EC-2= /3 will thank you for it. =A0

Mark






Mark,
=A0=A0=A0 What did you find for check valves ??....................



--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"= Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2
--f46d044785abd9842004ba2704ad--