X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5418780 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:33:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.163; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.74]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q1S4WrHQ009162 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:53 -0500 Received: from core-ddd002b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddd002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.197]) by mtaomg-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 023FCE000081 for ; Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:53 -0500 (EST) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CEC3E92B5C9B50_1DDC_11023_webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 35605-STANDARD Received: from 98.247.174.242 by webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.22) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:52 -0500 Message-Id: <8CEC3E92B50B493-1DDC-4038@webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [98.247.174.242] Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:52 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1330403573; bh=PaGsZv9n3den+ItjP4mfXHCCSklkGy9hD4xQJ2QQI/0=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bJlaJfgmw53Gqfiwuoy/9yrOwc+P6PkSODnruSitCHMGVRGoUussDu38zXgcNWrjH 8oSBj7anH1vxn7UCniDei0ZFQGqsQa4ByGukbwUIdIa+SOPpCPcmjKIPTLHnl2th9i q07PSS2I8qoHAiHC2m5ZLE5x92o423aWsFvtqOvs= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:509583104:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294a4f4c58f50c55 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CEC3E92B5C9B50_1DDC_11023_webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Belch the system.=20 I like that! I have a turbo 13b with a chin radiator. I alway lose some coolant ground running, and today was no exception.=20 I've been busy at the airport getting the airframe together, and today I pu= t fuel in the tanks for the first time. No Leaks! So I checked the engine oil and coolant, and ran it the hardest yet. Tracy'= s power indicator read 51% at about 4800 RPM?? SO that's about 2200 Propeller RPM, and the Catto prop is the same as for a= Lycoming 180 HP except it's rotation..=20 So my static thrust, on the first try at the airport is approx equal to a L= ycoming O-360. I need to read the manual a lot more. For some reason, it fell off at 50% p= ower, dropping back to 45%. Adding throttle made a new noise but no additi= onal power, so I gave up on that immediately.=20 Water temp was about 158 F but oil temp had climbed to 206F (Oops!) so I ra= n the RPM down biefly and shut down. My son acted as fire watch. He saw some leakage, and fearing that it was fu= el, shut me down. The coolant cap leaks. It's one of those weld in race cap= s from Summit or Jegs. I have a lever cap on it. The coolant expanded into = the catch can, but also drooled out and down the fire wall.=20 I guess I'm pretty excited, but back to coolant. When I add coolant, I pick up the tail wheel and hold it over my head. The = air bubbles move thru the cooland system, hoses, radiator ends etc. When I = set the tail wheel back down and check the fill cap, I usually get to add s= ome more coolant! -----Original Message----- From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Feb 26, 2012 4:47 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats. Thanks Dave. Yes the larger radiators I purchased (between the size of Dave= =20 eanards and John Slades, also turbos) is double pass. I tested the thermost= at=20 oday and it open as designed. I did drill a couple of holes in it tho. I al= so=20 ried to belch my system. I ran for awhile with the radiator cap off and als= o=20 oosened the AN fitting for the hose that comes from the coolant port on the= top=20 ear side plate to hopefully get the air out. I even lifted the nose a shook= the=20 lane attempting to force air out. Ok. Lifting the nose may have been useful= =20 nly in my mind.=20 Well, seems like I have some improvement. I idled for quite a while (didn't= =20 heck the clock as intended) at around 1700 rpm, prop fine pitched (45 - 105= =20 VO), 68 inch prop. Temps stabilized at about 193 coolant, 180 oil. When I= =20 ncreased power a bit temps rose, but they would slowly come down when power= ed=20 ack. Oh, for Houston it was chilly at 60 ish degrees.=20 Sent from my iPhone 4 On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Dave" wrote: > On 2/26/2012 11:29 AM, Chris Barber wrote: > I have been searching the archives but to scant successes regarding=20 hermostats use or lack of use for cooling. >=20 > I have been having issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to idle on= the=20 amp for over an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with adequate coolin= g.=20 owever, lately temps are rising faster and higher. >=20 > Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted that after about a te= n=20 inute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant temp probes was reading= =20 bout 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo gage, close to what was be= ing=20 ndicated on the panel However, the top of the radiator was cool to the tou= ch.=20 he handheld thermo gage read 45 degrees. Ok. Seems to be a=20 low/thermostat/pump issue. I will be Looking into this ASAP. >=20 > This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I know some do n= ot=20 se them. >=20 > It is my understanding that if you remove the thermostat you have to clos= e=20 ome passage off. What passage is this and why does this need to be done. Al= so,=20 hat is the accepted method. >=20 > While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. While I am= not=20 onsidering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling holes in the= =20 hermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest. >=20 > It seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I saw it. I= =20 ust finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no a= vail=20 nd my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Chris >=20 > Sent from my iPhone 4 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html >=20 =20 The first engine we built had no thermostat, and had "that" port plugged. = The=20 hermostat is essentially a Y valve... When cold, it is closed, and water is= =20 iverted through a bypass hole back to the engine. When warm it opens, diver= ting=20 ater from the bypass channel and sending it through the radiator. Of cours= e=20 his is a gradual change from one position to the other, as a result of ther= mal=20 xpansion. =20 If you believe your instrumentation is correct now, and was correct then, = with=20 egards to temperatures and your idle ability, then what has changed? =20 Has the thermostat failed or become plugged? Has airflow over the radiator= =20 hanged? Is this the same radiator you saw the long low temp idles with? (I= =20 ought that dual pass cross over radiator for a specific reason - to put a= =20 ooling fan on one small part of the rad, allowing forced airflow to cool AL= L of=20 he coolant as it passed through one of the pass channels - if you replaced = the=20 adiator was it a dual-pass as well?) Using the dual pass rad with a fan onl= y=20 ver 1/4 of the rad surface would provide a large surface for ram air coolin= g at=20 peed while still permitting very effective fan-forced cooling on the ground= and=20 t idle. =20 Dave Staten =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml ----------MB_8CEC3E92B5C9B50_1DDC_11023_webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Belch the system.
I like that!
I have a turbo 13b with a chin radiator.
I alway lose some coolant ground running, and today was no exception. =
I've been busy at the airport getting the airframe together, and today= I put fuel in the tanks for the first time. No Leaks!
So I checked the engine oil and coolant, and ran it the hardest yet. T= racy's power indicator read 51% at about 4800 RPM??
SO that's about 2200 Propeller RPM, and the Catto prop is the same as = for a Lycoming 180 HP except it's rotation.. 
So my static thrust, on the first try at the airport is approx equal t= o a Lycoming O-360.
I need to read the manual a lot more. For some reason, it fell off at = 50% power, dropping back to 45%. Adding  throttle made a new nois= e but no additional power, so I gave up on that immediately.
Water temp was about 158 F but oil temp had climbed to 206F (Oops!) so= I ran the RPM down biefly and shut down.
My son acted as fire watch. He saw some leakage, and fearing that it w= as fuel, shut me down. The coolant cap leaks. It's one of those weld in rac= e caps from Summit or Jegs. I have a lever cap on it. The coolant expanded = into the catch can, but also drooled out and down the fire wall.

I guess I'm pretty excited, but back to coolant.
When I add coolant, I pick up the tail wheel and hold it over my head.= The air bubbles move thru the cooland system, hoses, radiator ends etc. Wh= en I set the tail wheel back down and check the fill cap, I usually get to = add some more coolant!

= -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Feb 26, 2012 4:47 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Thermostats.

Thanks=
 Dave. Yes the larger radiators I purchased (between the size of Dave=20
Leanards and John Slades, also turbos) is double pass. I tested the thermos=
tat=20
today and it open as designed. I did drill a couple of holes in it tho. I a=
lso=20
tried to belch my system. I ran for awhile with the radiator cap off and al=
so=20
loosened the AN fitting for the hose that comes from the coolant port on th=
e top=20
rear side plate to hopefully get the air out. I even lifted the nose a shoo=
k the=20
plane attempting to force air out. Ok. Lifting the nose may have been usefu=
l=20
only in my mind.=20

Well, seems like I have some improvement. I idled for quite a while (didn't=
=20
check the clock as intended) at around 1700 rpm, prop fine pitched (45 - 10=
5=20
IVO), 68 inch prop. Temps stabilized at about 193 coolant, 180 oil. When I=
=20
increased power a bit temps rose, but they would slowly come down when powe=
red=20
back. Oh, for Houston it was chilly at 60 ish degrees.=20

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Dave" <david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/26/2012 11:29 AM, Chris Barber wrote:
>> I have been searching the archives but to scant successes regardin=
g=20
thermostats use or lack of use for cooling.
>>=20
>> I have been having issue with cooling lately. I use to be able to =
idle on the=20
ramp for over an hour in the middle of a Houston summer with adequate cooli=
ng.=20
However, lately temps are rising faster and higher.
>>=20
>> Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted that after abo=
ut a ten=20
minute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant temp probes was readin=
g=20
about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo gage, close to what was b=
eing=20
indicated on the panel  However, the top of the radiator was cool to the to=
uch.=20
The handheld thermo gage read 45 degrees.   Ok. Seems to be a=20
flow/thermostat/pump issue. I will be Looking into this ASAP.
>>=20
>> This got me to think about thermostat usage. I have one. I know so=
me do not=20
use them.
>>=20
>> It is my understanding that if you remove the thermostat you have =
to close=20
some passage off. What passage is this and why does this need to be done. A=
lso,=20
what is the accepted method.
>>=20
>> While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. Whi=
le I am not=20
considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling holes in the=
=20
thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest.
>>=20
>> It seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I sa=
w it. I=20
just finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no =
avail=20
and my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Chris
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>> --
>> Homepage:  h=
ttp://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/=
lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>=20
>=20
> The first engine we built had no thermostat, and had "that" port plugg=
ed. The=20
thermostat is essentially a Y valve... When cold, it is closed, and water i=
s=20
diverted through a bypass hole back to the engine. When warm it opens, dive=
rting=20
water from the bypass channel and sending it through the radiator.  Of cour=
se=20
this is a gradual change from one position to the other, as a result of the=
rmal=20
expansion.
>=20
> If you believe your instrumentation is correct now, and was correct th=
en, with=20
regards to temperatures and your idle ability, then what has changed?
>=20
> Has the thermostat failed or become plugged? Has airflow over the radi=
ator=20
changed? Is this the same radiator you saw the long low temp idles with? (I=
=20
bought that dual pass cross over radiator for a specific reason - to put a=
=20
cooling fan on one small part of the rad, allowing forced airflow to cool A=
LL of=20
the coolant as it passed through one of the pass channels - if you replaced=
 the=20
radiator was it a dual-pass as well?) Using the dual pass rad with a fan on=
ly=20
over 1/4 of the rad surface would provide a large surface for ram air cooli=
ng at=20
speed while still permitting very effective fan-forced cooling on the groun=
d and=20
at idle.
>=20
> Dave Staten
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http:=
//www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list=
s/flyrotary/List.html

--
Homepage:  http://www=
.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly=
rotary/List.html
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