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Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:23:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Thermostats.
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I still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it. 
 
The Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system when  
cold. 
 
Where coolant is free to move through only the engine block during warm up. 
 This keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from growing too big 
on  the hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm quickly so the 
total HC is  low enough to sell the cars in the Peoples Republic of California.
 
In a conventional system, most thermostats have a little bubble valve  and 
that allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the engine and pull  
some coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm up last longer than is 
 good practice. In the Mazda version the thermostat from the Rube Goldberg 
shops  has a conventional looking top to block coolant from leaving to the 
radiator,  and a plug valve that is open when cold to divert coolant around 
only inside the  block. When the coolant warms the top opens and the plug 
valve closes off the  bypass port in the pump body forcing coolant out the 
norice to the radiator. 
 
You can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve hole)  
for a pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat. 
 
I use a 160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled  around the 
perimeter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just  reducing power 
allows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the engine.  On very 
cold days, the thermostat never opens and the engine cools only through  the 3 
holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those days we taped off much of the  
radiator. We have a big radiator.
 
The rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air bubbles  
to use to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it the most. It 
can  run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you rev it up for say 
a race  start, or a take off, zoom there go the bubbles swept along to the 
suction side  of the pump, followed by no more pumping and then no more 
engine. All of this is  the same as any engine, however the rotary has the water 
pump mounted very high  on the block where the bubbles can have the maximum 
effect on producing  cavitation. 
 
All of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the  
engineering for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire wall  
(plastic crap that no American relief cap fits very well) has the pressure cap  
on it. The cap on the radiator is just a lid to seal the radiator and has no  
pressure relief function. Bubbles popping to the top of the radiator are 
forced  up the hose to the pressure bottle, then pop to the surface inside the 
bottle.  With any pressure reduction inside the block, resulting in only 
pure coolant  returning to the block. The pressure bottle need only be filled 
to 2/3 capacity  allowing a compressible air volume on top of the coolant. 
After 3 heat cycles  you will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will 
be in the block and the  recovered air will be in the bottle. Works great. 
Works every time. Designed by  Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and 
even Ford racing engines and  airplanes. 
 
This was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an Accumulator.
These are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble removal and 
 as a back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a specific pressure. 
As in  3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in airplanes.
 
The make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will fit an  
American style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) Consult you  
radiator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and thinner is better. Hose  
to the radiator top out the lowest point in the bottle. Cap accessible so 
you  can top off the coolant. The actual location of the make up bottle is 
not at all  important. It need not be the highest item in the coolant system. 
The hose needs  to be about 1/8" in ID however. 
In the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the passenger  
floor, and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar in every race 
car I  ever built. Never a cooling problem. 
 
If you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the open  
position. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol in the  
bellows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. They do not  
die slowly in order to give you a warning. 
 
Many racers use restrictions in the water outlet to limit flow rate to  the 
radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to flow and not 
 the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring inside the 
radiator.  Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and hose is much larger than the 
top  (high pressure) hose. Notice also that the bottom hose has an internal 
support  spring installed to prevent collapse. Deduce then that it is 
possible to  collapse the bottom hose via a dynamic pressure difference between the 
water  pump outlet and the water pump inlet even though the pressure cap is 
in place an  fully functional.
 
They (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm while  
listening to the bottom radiator hose through a stethoscope,
you will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends. 
 
Notice that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator hose  
to and from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still it  works.
All of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thick  
restrictor. And still it works.
 
For low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is probably of no 
 value. 
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
In a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:

I have  been searching the archives but to scant successes regarding 
thermostats use  or lack of use for cooling. 

I have been having issue with cooling  lately. I use to be able to idle on 
the ramp for over an hour in the middle of  a Houston summer with adequate 
cooling. However, lately temps are rising  faster and higher. 

Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I noted  that after about a ten 
minute taxi that the mounting location of my coolant  temp probes was 
reading about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo  gage, close to what 
was being indicated on the panel  However, the top of  the radiator was cool 
to the touch. The handheld thermo gage read 45  degrees.   Ok. Seems to be a 
flow/thermostat/pump issue. I will be  Looking into this ASAP. 

This got me to think about thermostat usage. I  have one. I know some do 
not use them. 

It is my understanding that if  you remove the thermostat you have to close 
some passage off. What passage is  this and why does this need to be done. 
Also, what is the accepted method.  

While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. While I  am 
not considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling holes in  
the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest. 

It  seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I saw it. I 
just  finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no 
avail  and my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns. 

Thanks,  

Chris


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<DIV>I still know all of that stuff, I just cannot remember it. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Mazda and many other engines use a closed loop cooling system when=
=20
cold. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Where coolant is free to move through only the engine block during war=
m up.=20
This keeps hot spots from forming and keeps the block from growing too big =
on=20
the hot (exhaust) side. It also gets the engine warm quickly so the total H=
C is=20
low enough to sell the cars in the Peoples Republic of California.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In a conventional system,&nbsp;most thermostats have a little bubble v=
alve=20
and that allows some coolant (and bubbles) to move out of the engine and pu=
ll=20
some coolant in from the radiator. This makes the warm up last longer than =
is=20
good practice. In the Mazda version the thermostat from the Rube Goldberg s=
hops=20
has a conventional looking top to block coolant from leaving to the radiato=
r,=20
and a plug valve that is open when cold to divert coolant around only insid=
e the=20
block. When the coolant warms the top opens and the plug valve closes off t=
he=20
bypass port in the pump body forcing coolant out the norice to the radiator=
.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You can modify the pump casting by tapping the internal (plug valve ho=
le)=20
for a pipe plug. Then use a conventional American thermostat. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I use&nbsp;a&nbsp;160 degree thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled=
=20
around the perimeter. In the event that the thermostat should fail, just=20
reducing power allows the three holes to pass enough coolant to save the en=
gine.=20
On very cold days, the thermostat never opens and the engine cools only thr=
ough=20
the 3 holes and runs about 150 degrees. For those days we taped off much of=
 the=20
radiator. We have a big radiator.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The rotary has dozens of nooks and crannies in which it hides air bubb=
les=20
to use to stop the water pump with an air lock when you need it the most. I=
t can=20
run for weeks with the bubbles in place and when you rev it up for say a ra=
ce=20
start, or a take off, zoom there go the bubbles swept along to the suction =
side=20
of the pump, followed by no more pumping and then no more engine. All of th=
is is=20
the same as any engine, however the rotary has the water pump mounted very =
high=20
on the block where the bubbles can have the maximum effect on producing=20
cavitation. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>All of the air must be removed from the system. Mazda did all of the=
=20
engineering for that in the RX2-3 and 4. The make up tank on the fire wall=
=20
(plastic crap that no American relief cap fits very well) has the pressure =
cap=20
on it. The cap on the radiator is just a lid to seal the radiator and has n=
o=20
pressure relief function. Bubbles popping to the top of the radiator are fo=
rced=20
up the hose to the pressure bottle, then pop to the surface inside the bott=
le.=20
With any pressure reduction inside the block, resulting in only pure coolan=
t=20
returning to the block. The pressure bottle need only be filled to 2/3 capa=
city=20
allowing a compressible air volume on top of the coolant. After 3 heat cycl=
es=20
you will need to top off the bottle as the coolant will be in the block and=
 the=20
recovered air will be in the bottle. Works great. Works every time. Designe=
d by=20
Mazda. Works on Mazda, Cosworth, Chevy and even Ford racing engines and=20
airplanes. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This was no genius move by Mazda. This is just an Accumulator.</DIV>
<DIV>These are used in all kinds of liquid systems to provide bubble remova=
l and=20
as a back up supply of that liquid. And to maintain a specific pressure. As=
 in=20
3000 pound flight control hydraulic systems in airplanes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The make up tank or bottle need only have a filler neck that will fit =
an=20
American style relief cap. (Stant lever cap 17 to 22 pounds) Consult you=20
radiator manufacturer for maximum pressure. Taller and thinner is better. H=
ose=20
to the radiator top out the lowest point in the bottle. Cap accessible so y=
ou=20
can top off the coolant. The actual location of the make up bottle is not a=
t all=20
important. It need not be the highest item in the coolant system. The hose =
needs=20
to be about 1/8" in ID however. </DIV>
<DIV>In the racer the Mazda make up bottle from an RX-2 sits on the passeng=
er=20
floor, and works just fine since 1980. I put that or similar in every race =
car I=20
ever built. Never a&nbsp;cooling problem. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If you use a thermostat, keep in mind that they seldom fail in the ope=
n=20
position. They fail by the bellows cracking and loosing the alcohol in the=
=20
bellows (or whatever they use now) and the damn thing snaps shut. They do n=
ot=20
die slowly in order to give&nbsp;you a warning. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Many racers use restrictions in the water outlet&nbsp;to limit flow ra=
te to=20
the radiator. This is so the restrictor is the main restriction to flow and=
 not=20
the radiator. You do not want any cavitation occurring inside the radiator.=
=20
Notice that the bottom radiator outlet and hose is much larger than the top=
=20
(high pressure) hose. Notice also that the bottom hose has an internal supp=
ort=20
spring installed to prevent collapse. Deduce then that it is possible to=20
collapse the bottom hose via a dynamic pressure difference between the wate=
r=20
pump outlet and the water pump inlet even though the pressure cap is in pla=
ce an=20
fully functional.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>They (radiators) die quickly. If you run the rotary up to 8,000 rpm wh=
ile=20
listening to the bottom radiator hose through a stethoscope,</DIV>
<DIV>you will probably install a restrictor after changing you Depends. </D=
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Notice that some aircraft installations run fine with 1" ID radiator h=
ose=20
to and from the radiator. That is a lot of restriction. And still it=20
works.</DIV>
<DIV>All of my coolant must pass through a 5/8" sharp edged 1/8" thick=20
restrictor. And still it works.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For low RPM installations such as airplanes, a restrictor is probably =
of no=20
value. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lynn E. Hanover</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 2/26/2012 12:29:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20
cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">=
<FONT=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DA=
rial>I have=20
  been searching the archives but to scant successes regarding thermostats =
use=20
  or lack of use for cooling. <BR><BR>I have been having issue with cooling=
=20
  lately. I use to be able to idle on the ramp for over an hour in the midd=
le of=20
  a Houston summer with adequate cooling. However, lately temps are rising=
=20
  faster and higher. <BR><BR>Yesterday, while troubleshooting this issue I =
noted=20
  that after about a ten minute taxi that the mounting location of my coola=
nt=20
  temp probes was reading about 220 degrees measured with a handheld thermo=
=20
  gage, close to what was being indicated on the panel&nbsp; However, the t=
op of=20
  the radiator was cool to the touch. The handheld thermo gage read 45=20
  degrees.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok. Seems to be a flow/thermostat/pump issue. I will=
 be=20
  Looking into this ASAP. <BR><BR>This got me to think about thermostat usa=
ge. I=20
  have one. I know some do not use them. <BR><BR>It is my understanding tha=
t if=20
  you remove the thermostat you have to close some passage off. What passag=
e is=20
  this and why does this need to be done. Also, what is the accepted method=
.=20
  <BR><BR>While researching I also saw discussion on restrictive plates. Wh=
ile I=20
  am not considering a restrictive plate, the thread discussed drilling hol=
es in=20
  the thermostat itself. Lynn mentioned do it caught my interest. <BR><BR>I=
t=20
  seems this is something I use to know but now forget where I saw it. I ju=
st=20
  finished reviewing my partial scan of Tracy's conversion manual to no ava=
il=20
  and my archive search is giving me hundreds of returns. <BR><BR>Thanks,=
=20
  <BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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