X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5384914 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:40:56 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.97; envelope-from=bktrub@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.203]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q16HeDpW031484 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:40:13 -0500 Received: from core-duc003b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-duc003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.164.137]) by mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 74FF9E0000A2 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:40:13 -0500 (EST) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CEB30D839E1F08_1644_9FF84_webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 35412-STANDARD Received: from 50.46.146.205 by webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com (64.12.224.156) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:40:12 -0500 Message-Id: <8CEB30D838B1400-1644-29775@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [50.46.146.205] Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:40:13 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1328550013; bh=ePDljWT+8zGmpa+9Pbi/wJBQnWm8WLSLe6nYXZbBACQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UPtDxyixNxtCxUqS0Vk+nG9o1kQ6i/dgB9ko7LFMkBGy0UkgkaTtFYrZolCWrj7rV IGYHJk5k5LgLY6MxZislAmacxvwQRHSvKV1Tiq/Q+8ys/CLYH0s9stUe/OXYWm9hlZ jEykp4UO4XBvTGmCCsVMCj+EWUBD9oEFsQp5ITGs= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:442230752:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cb4f30107d1edd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CEB30D839E1F08_1644_9FF84_webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, I'll keep it in mind if I exhaust all other possiblities.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 9:21 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning Not time enough for a technical discussion of the electrical / magnetic cha= racteristics involved but it has to do with the fact that the EC2 was desig= ned around the 2nd gen CAS which has very different characteristics than th= e 3rd gen. This is the same issue involved with the Renesis CAS (same typ= e part as 3rd gen). =20 I am only guessing that your problem MIGHT have something to do with this. = There is an EC2 modification that I've made for some Renesis users that so= lved similar problems. It may or may not help yours. If nothing else tur= ns up, it might be worth trying the mod in your EC2 (not EM2).. Tracy=20 On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:49 AM, wrote: Tracy, =20 I think we have. It seems interesting that it appears to be more rpm relate= d than MP or fuel flow. I'll try going through all the other items I can th= ink of- new spark plugs, mixture changes and a little more trial and error = with the timing. What were your thoughts on the CAS incompatability with th= e EC2? And what would be your proposed fix?=20 =20 As you recall, I was having issues with really horrible and pants soiling b= ackfiring which would commence about 200 feet agl after takeoff. That turne= d out to be a polarity reversal of the 360 degree sensing CAS. My engine wa= s a JDM engine from a wreck. The only damage was to the CAS connector and a= hole in the front housing. I did a rebuild and found the engine to be in e= xcellent shape and fixed the front housing with a little tig welding. I wir= ed the CAS with some miniature spade terminals, RTV and rescue tape. The on= ly thing was, I had no way of telling what the polarity of the wiring was a= nd had a 50% chance of getting it wrong, which of course I did. The CAS sig= nal was of sufficient quality to run the engine up to all the speeds I coul= d achieve on the ground, but once airborne, it quickly got into a range tha= t was not achievable on the ground and the CAS signal was ambiguous enough = where the engine would start backfiring violently. Lots of people would run= out of their hangars to bear witness to the spectacle. The whole deal was = a little outside my comfort zone.=20 =20 I"ve since obtained a proper connector from the dealership (for free!) and = wired it in correctly. It was during this time that I recall your mentionin= g the possible CAS/EM2 incompatablity. So, if you would, could you let me k= now what your thoughts are on what you think a possible CAS/EM2 incompatabi= lty might arise from? =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 8:26 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning Hmmm.... Hard RPM limit... Using the 13 BREW... Have we discussed the= EC2 3rd gen crank sensor compatibility issue? Tracy=20 On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:15 AM, wrote: This was at any altitude- I'll take off at sea level and on climb out if t= he rpms get to 6100, the engine stumbles as if it were suddenly way too lea= n. So, what I'm saying is that this can happen at any altitude. It seems to= be more of a RPM issue than of manifold pressure. =20 As far as the EGT goes, it may be an instrumentation error.=20 =20 I've tried to richen up the mixture and then go up past 6100 rpm, but I sti= ll get the power drop. =20 And yes, I have the EM2 set at the factory setting for engine max power, so= all I'm seeing is just an arbitrary number.=20 =20 So, I'm going to change spark plugs and do some more flying. The weather is= nice out here for the next few days so I have some opportunity to fully ex= plore what's going on.=20 =20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 6:00 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning Can't make an educated guess from the data given but here's a few questions= & comments. Can you clarify what you mean by "precipitous power drop"? Does the power = go down at higher MP? (6100 at 22.6" aint bad on a FP prop. What was the = airspeed & altitude? EVERYTHING MATTERS!) Is the EGT imbalance only at high power? Are you sure it's not instrumenta= tion error? As Ed asked, what was the result of varying the mixture control at high pow= er? =20 You say that engine is silky smooth below 6100. Does that imply it is roug= h above 6100? The % power readout of the EM2 is meaningless if the fuel flow function isn= 't calibrated and you haven't plugged in a realistic value for your engine'= s max power. Tracy On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, wrote: I've got just over 20 hours on my plane today, all of the lower- end bugs h= ave been worked out. Right now I'm having power drop off precipitously righ= t at 6100 rpm- 22.6 inches of MP and around 70% power according to the EM2.= This is around 130-140 mph IAS. The fuel injection Map shows a smooth grap= h at that point. I thought that there might be a timing issue so I tried ad= vancing the timing about 2 degrees but that did not change a thing so I set= the timing back where it was previously. I am seeing about a 180 f differe= nce on the two rotors- I went to mode four to try to balance out the egts, = but I could only effect about a 20 degree change. Rotor 2 consistently show= s somewhere above 1800 F, which I tend to question. I'll re-check my calibr= ation. I have had the injectors cleaned and tested so unless one of them = got clogged, that should not be an issue. Still, I should pull them and hav= e them re-checked. I may have an issue with the EGT probes themselves.=20 =20 Down below 6100 rpm the engine is smooth as silk, but obviously there is a= n issue above that .=20 =20 =20 Brian Trubee RV-4 13 BREW =20 ----------MB_8CEB30D839E1F08_1644_9FF84_webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Ok, I'll keep it in mind i= f I exhaust all other possiblities.
 
Brian Trubee


= -----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 9:21 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning

Not time enough= for a technical discussion of the electrical / magnetic characteristics in= volved but it has to do with the fact that the EC2 was designed around the = 2nd gen CAS which has very different characteristics than the 3rd gen. = ; This is the same issue involved with the Renesis CAS  (same type par= t as 3rd gen). 

I am only guessing that your problem MIGHT have something to do with this.&= nbsp; There is an EC2 modification that I've made for some Renesis users th= at solved similar problems.  It may or may not help yours.   If n= othing else turns up, it might be worth trying the mod in your EC2 (not EM2= )..

Tracy

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:49 AM, &= lt;bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
Tracy,
 
I think we have. It seems = interesting that it appears to be more rpm related than MP or fuel flow. I'= ll try going through all the other items I can think of- new spark plugs, m= ixture changes and a little more trial and error with the timing. What were= your thoughts on the CAS incompatability with the EC2? And what would be y= our proposed fix?
 
As you recall, I was having issues with really horrible and pants soil= ing backfiring which would commence about 200 feet agl after takeoff. That = turned out to be a polarity reversal of the 360 degree sensing CAS. My engi= ne was a JDM engine from a wreck. The only damage was to the CAS connector = and a hole in the front housing. I did a rebuild and found the engine to be= in excellent shape and fixed the front housing with a little tig welding. = I wired the CAS with some miniature spade terminals, RTV and rescue tape. T= he only thing was, I had no way of telling what the polarity of the wiring = was and had a 50% chance of getting it wrong, which of course I did. The CA= S signal was of sufficient quality to run the engine up to all the speeds I= could achieve on the ground, but once airborne, it quickly got into a rang= e that was not achievable on the ground and the CAS signal was ambiguous en= ough where the engine would start backfiring violently. Lots of people woul= d run out of their hangars to bear witness to the spectacle. The whole deal= was a little outside my comfort zone.
 
I"ve since obtained a proper connector from the dealership (for free!)= and wired it in correctly. It was during this time that I recall your ment= ioning the possible CAS/EM2 incompatablity. So, if you would, could you let= me know what your thoughts are on what you think a possible CAS/EM2 incomp= atabilty might arise from?
 
Brian Trubee


-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 8:26 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning

Hmmm....   Hard RPM limit...   Using the 13 = BREW...   Have we discussed the EC2 3rd gen crank sensor compatibility= issue?

Tracy

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:15 AM, <bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
This was at any altitude- I'll take off at sea level  and on clim= b out if the rpms get to 6100, the engine stumbles as if it were suddenly w= ay too lean. So, what I'm saying is that this can happen at any altitude. I= t seems to be more of a RPM issue than of manifold pressure.
 
As far as the EGT goes, it may be an instrumentation error.
 
I've tried to richen up the mixture and then go up past 6100 rpm, but = I still get the power drop.
 
And yes, I have the EM2 set at the factory setting for engine max powe= r, so all I'm seeing is just an arbitrary number.
 
So, I'm going to change spark plugs and do some more flying. The weath= er is nice out here for the next few days so I have some opportunity to ful= ly explore what's going on.
 
Brian Trubee


-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 6:00 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Upper end tuning

Can't make an educated guess from the data given but here's a few ques= tions & comments.

Can you clarify what you mean by "precipitous power drop"?  Does the p= ower go down at higher MP?  (6100 at 22.6" aint bad on a FP prop. = ; What was the airspeed & altitude?  EVERYTHING MATTERS!)

Is the EGT imbalance only at high power?  Are you sure it's not instru= mentation error?

As Ed asked, what was the result of varying the mixture control at high pow= er? 

You say that engine is silky smooth below 6100.  Does that imply it is= rough above 6100?

The % power readout of the EM2 is meaningless if the fuel flow function isn= 't calibrated and you haven't plugged in a realistic value for your engine'= s max power.

Tracy


On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, &= lt;bktrub@aol.com> wrote:
I've got just over 20 hours on my plane today, all of the lower- end b= ugs have been worked out. Right now I'm having power drop off precipitously= right at 6100 rpm- 22.6 inches of MP and around 70% power according to the= EM2. This is around 130-140 mph IAS. The fuel injection Map shows a smooth= graph at that point. I thought that there might be a timing issue so I tri= ed advancing the timing about 2 degrees but that did not change a thing so = I set the timing back where it was previously. I am seeing about a 180 f di= fference on the two rotors- I went to mode four to try to balance out the e= gts, but I could only effect about a 20 degree change. Rotor 2 consistently= shows somewhere above 1800 F, which I tend to question. I'll re-check my c= alibration.   I have had the injectors cleaned and tested so unle= ss one of them got clogged, that should not be an issue. Still, I should pu= ll them and have them re-checked. I may have an issue with the EGT probes t= hemselves.
 
 Down below 6100 rpm the engine is smooth as silk, but obviously = there is an issue above that .
 
 
Brian Trubee
RV-4  13 BREW
 



 ----------MB_8CEB30D839E1F08_1644_9FF84_webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com--