X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-gx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.161.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5383972 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:54:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by ggnr1 with SMTP id r1so2457561ggn.25 for ; Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=WdCWQN2iTmVmbMmqeUozEA7XZI1aWHD89S7n5FQ8KM8=; b=ZKQ/IREzFb0XUJc2KY1wkfQ1CI82itoTdGWZ+BhbQvkc7ss+CipvVhbNCA55SmmAvM DQWJHili10honYQBT/mSJFNo9GYJsvSQFYUolt5uJUXK0fIibcLrKHCSZsYrSwMylmOk bnc0e/A5/Za/iAyO7hF6mLMMA3eKxxudTHWdg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.5.17 with SMTP id h17mr6607854ani.15.1328475247078; Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.4.8 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:54:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 14:54:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: New Flywheel for RD-1x redrives From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c92aa631ee0704b83dbfe5 --001636c92aa631ee0704b83dbfe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 02/03/2012 12:23 PM, Tracy wrote: > >> Finally got around to flight testing the aftermarket flywheel setup for >> the RWS redrive. >> >> The cracked flexplate issue some builders experienced came up at the same >> time as my CNC source for input shafts lost the ability to make them >> anymore due to loss of specialized spline making machinery. Since I had to >> line up a new source I took this opportunity to review the design from the >> input shaft back to the engine. Because the damper has been such an >> expensive and labor intensive part, it was looked at as well. As a >> result, there have been enough changes to warrant a change in the name so >> the new drives will be RD-2B & RD-2C. >> >> In rethinking the drive I had the thought that since the relatively low >> frequency primary resonance range of the drive train is taken care of by >> the system lash, that left only the high frequency harmonics that the >> damper is responsible for. This high range is the factor that creates the >> red zone in rpm ranges found on some certified engines and metal prop >> combinations. As far as I know, no one has used a metal prop on an RD-1x >> drive so I decided that it was an unneeded requirement. The new design has >> no damper at all and consequently it has a "No Metal Propeller" >> restriction. >> >> Replacing the damper is a flanged spline that is bolted directly to the >> flywheel using the same bolts (longer bolts required) that attach the >> flywheel to the counterweight. The spline is a different spec (15 splines >> instead of 30) so it is not compatible with the RD-1 damper but the new >> shaft itself is backward compatible with the remainder of the drive. I >> retrofitted the same RD-1C that was on my RV-4 for these tests. >> >> The flywheel was an aluminum racing flywheel with the replaceable iron >> friction surface unbolted and removed. Really looks pretty and >> professional compared to the flexplate. Any of the aftermarket RX-7 & RX-8 >> racing flywheels (steel or aluminum) that utilize the auto counterweight >> may be used. >> >> As David Leonard found, these flywheels place the ring gear about .2" >> closer to the engine than the flexplate. To compensate, I milled .2" off >> the front surface of the adapter plate where the starter mounts. No >> changes were needed to the starter itself. I did not bother to grind the >> lead-in bevel on the ring gear teeth as discussed earlier. Starter >> engagement was smooth anyway. >> >> The RV-4 drive had over 700 hours on it and everything looked beautiful >> inside. No signs of wear other than a shallow groove (~.002") on the input >> shaft where the 1mm thrust bearing race between the two needle bearings >> rides. Others have reported more than this in fewer hours so this is an >> area to inspect carefully. The new input shaft is a harder alloy (post >> machining through hardened 4340) than the the RD-1 which was pre hardened >> 4140. This should reduce the wear in this area. The old flexplate with >> over 1000 hours was still crack free. The input shaft oil seal still >> looked and felt new so it was not replaced as planed. Others have reported >> these leaking in much fewer hours. Don't know the reason but I suspect >> that oil temperatures out of range may be a factor. NEVER allow oil temps >> to exceed redline. If they go higher, back off the power then land and >> correct the cooling system. >> >> Only 1 hour of flight testing so far but all indications were good. >> Operated the engine through the full range of rpm up to 7100 looking for >> telltale signs of resonance. I was sort of expecting to feel, sense or >> hear some indication of increased harshness in the drive with no rubber >> anywhere in the system but if anything, it felt smoother. There was none >> of the 'Waaa --- Waaa' warbling sound (like a twin engine with the engines >> out of sync) that I had with the Ross drive years ago. So far I'm very >> satisfied with the results but it's still early in the tests. >> >> Tracy Crook >> > > Slightly off topic: I've seen 2 completely different Mazda auto trans > flywheels: the 'deep dish' that I've got (cracked with just automotive > use), and a much flatter version that has a thick spacer between the > E-shaft & the flywheel. Anyone know whether the flatter versions also > crack? The deep dish model has lightening holes punched through the 'bent' > area of the plate, & that's where mine is cracked. I'm wondering if the > flat versions are less likely to crack. > > Back on topic: It's good to hear that there's a potential solution > available. What is needed to convert, for those of us who haven't yet > flown? I can handle milling the plate to move the starter. What else will > be needed? If (can?) we keep the damper plate, will everything else work > with the after market flywheels? Or should we plan on buying the new shaft > to mate the after market flywheel to the gearbox? > > Last, I've heard of using an input shaft as a 'quill shaft' (?) to supply > the torsional de-coupling instead of rubber or metal springs. Is that a > possibility, to allow for possible future use of metal props? > > Charlie > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:** > 81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > Tracy, I take it that the E40D splined clutch drum part used on the RD1X damper assembly is not suitable to be bolted directly to the flywheel in the same manner as the new splined/flanged part ??..................... Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 --001636c92aa631ee0704b83dbfe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Charlie England = <ceengland@= bellsouth.net> wrote:
On 02/03/2012 12:23 PM, Tracy wrote:
Finally got around to flight testing the aftermarket flyw= heel setup for the RWS redrive.

The cracked flexplate issue some bui= lders experienced came up at the same time as my CNC source for input shaft= s lost the ability to make them anymore due to loss of specialized spline m= aking machinery. =A0Since I had to line up a new source I took this opportu= nity to review the design from the input shaft back to the engine. =A0 Beca= use the damper has been such an expensive and labor intensive part, it was = looked at as well. =A0 As a result, there have been enough changes to warra= nt a change in the name so the new drives will be RD-2B & RD-2C.

In rethinking the drive I had the thought that since the relatively low= frequency primary resonance range of the drive train is taken care of by t= he system lash, that left only the high frequency harmonics that the damper= is responsible for. =A0This high range is the factor that creates the red = zone in rpm ranges found on some certified engines and metal prop combinati= ons. =A0 As far as I know, no one has used a metal prop on an RD-1x drive s= o I decided that it was an unneeded requirement. =A0The new design has no d= amper at all and consequently it has a "No Metal Propeller" =A0re= striction.

Replacing the damper is a flanged spline that is bolted d= irectly to the flywheel using the same bolts (longer bolts required) that a= ttach the flywheel to the counterweight. =A0The spline is a different spec = (15 splines instead of 30) so it is not compatible with the RD-1 damper but= the new shaft itself is backward compatible with the remainder of the driv= e. =A0I retrofitted the same RD-1C that was on my RV-4 for these tests.

The flywheel was an aluminum racing flywheel with the rep= laceable iron friction surface unbolted and removed. =A0Really looks pretty= and professional compared to the flexplate. =A0Any of the aftermarket RX-7= & RX-8 racing flywheels (steel or aluminum) that utilize the auto coun= terweight may be used.

As David Leonard found, these flywheels place the ring gear about .2&qu= ot; closer to the engine than the flexplate. =A0To compensate, I milled .2&= quot; off the front surface of the adapter plate where the starter mounts. = =A0No changes were needed to the starter itself. =A0 I did not bother to gr= ind the lead-in bevel on the ring gear teeth as discussed earlier. =A0 Star= ter engagement was smooth anyway.

The RV-4 drive had over 700 hours on it and everything looked beautiful= inside. =A0No signs of wear other than a shallow groove (~.002") on t= he input shaft where the 1mm thrust bearing race between the two needle bea= rings rides. =A0Others have reported more than this in fewer hours so this = is an area to inspect carefully. =A0The new input shaft is a harder alloy (= post machining through hardened 4340) than the the RD-1 which was pre harde= ned 4140. =A0This should reduce the wear in this area. =A0 The old flexplat= e with over 1000 hours was still crack free. =A0 The input shaft oil seal s= till looked and felt new so it was not replaced as planed. =A0Others have r= eported these leaking in much fewer hours. =A0Don't know the reason but= I suspect that oil temperatures out of range may be a factor. =A0NEVER all= ow oil temps to exceed redline. =A0If they go higher, back off the power th= en land and correct the cooling system.

Only 1 hour of flight testing so far but all indications were good. =A0= Operated the engine through the full range of rpm up to 7100 looking for te= lltale signs of resonance. =A0 I was sort of expecting to feel, sense or he= ar some indication of increased harshness in the drive with no rubber anywh= ere in the system but if anything, it felt smoother. =A0There was none of t= he 'Waaa --- Waaa' warbling sound (like a twin engine with the engi= nes out of sync) that I had with the Ross drive years ago. =A0So far I'= m very satisfied with the results but it's still early in the tests.
Tracy Crook

Slightly off topic: I've seen= 2 completely different Mazda auto trans flywheels: the 'deep dish'= that I've got (cracked with just automotive use), and a much flatter v= ersion that has a thick spacer between the E-shaft & the flywheel. Anyo= ne know whether the flatter versions also crack? The deep dish model has li= ghtening holes punched through the 'bent' area of the plate, & = that's where mine is cracked. I'm wondering if the flat versions ar= e less likely to crack.

Back on topic: It's good to hear that there's a potential solut= ion available. What is needed to convert, for those of us who haven't y= et flown? I can handle milling the plate to move the starter. What else wil= l be needed? If (can?) we keep the damper plate, will everything else work = with the after market flywheels? Or should we plan on buying the new shaft = to mate the after market flywheel to the gearbox?

Last, I've heard of using an input shaft as a 'quill shaft'= (?) to supply the torsional de-coupling instead of rubber or metal springs= . Is that a possibility, to allow for possible future use of metal props?

Charlie=20



--
Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyr= otary/List.html


Tracy,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0 I take it that the E40D splined clutch drum part used=A0on t= he RD1X damper assembly is not suitable to be bolted directly
to the flywheel in the same manner as the new splined/flanged part ??.= ....................
=A0
Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_E= C2_EM2
--001636c92aa631ee0704b83dbfe5--