X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com ([74.125.82.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTPS id 5358866 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:01:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by werm10 with SMTP id m10so1047371wer.25 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:00:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=cVMzuiS7IxgSvvPKcD1C+iPOa1Gw8hCFB6i8T+nA/yc=; b=kEYUCMpMErt7J8JvAO9EsyOlitV50cOjbVSsvdp1l0Yn7rcutcOiWHuE8VIKFTRwmQ 2QXuSMlrbU1okie3dzOaP4RZCOviczdynDPp9ki4c+9GskiU1L9qkBkfqJOEHOI4GgC8 1hYmd/v+dwmSCjSIQZhZdAMOfqLqHz8BXMtPg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.180.83.104 with SMTP id p8mr3846874wiy.4.1327154443214; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.105.211 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 06:00:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:00:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P-port breakthrough From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044289ee26616a04b70a39a4 --f46d044289ee26616a04b70a39a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tracy, Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check it again to be certain. I've been wondering if a small vacuum chamber, with three lines from the rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better solution. Or, possibly only use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to the EC-2 only. Mark On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy wrote: > Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. Idle MP on a PP engine > will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out > of the ball park. Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm. 17" > is where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise! My 20B is at even lower > (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg! > > So, that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you > ALREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP > readings. I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS > went bad and started leaking. > > If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely would > NOT WORK. Have you ever tested the plumbing? Just disconnect the MP line > at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the vacuum. > If not, you have a leak. > > Tracy > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > >> Charlie, >> >> The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't work out. >> But so far, this looks good. >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England > > wrote: >> >>> Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially >>> equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each >>> rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, >>> with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the >>> fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd expect that the computer is taking >>> 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure >>> to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the >>> pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take >>> its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right? >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> >>> On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>> Tracy, >>> >>> OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. Any ideas on >>> what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? >>> Calibrated air bleeds? >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>>> Tracy, >>>> >>>> Thanks, I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of those >>>> "suckers" and they're working overtime. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are "good" >>>>> ie, don't leak, the MP won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the >>>>> engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle >>>>> (especially if done rapidly).. Check your throttle response to be sure >>>>> the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO. >>>>> >>>>> Tracy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I made a major breakthrough today. In preparation for hooking up my >>>>>> new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install >>>>>> check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. (For >>>>>> those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide >>>>>> throttle TB.) My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports >>>>>> in each rotor housing. Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right >>>>>> then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. >>>>>> Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was >>>>>> approx. 17". This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me from flying. >>>>>> Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0" range. Then it >>>>>> dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see >>>>>> an average of all three rotors. Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) >>>>>> apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for >>>>>> each rotor. By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now >>>>>> isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. >>>>>> Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way >>>>>> lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. I'll probably re-set the >>>>>> EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very >>>>>> beginning. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in >>>>>> the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. Your >>>>>> EC-2/3 will thank you for it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > --f46d044289ee26616a04b70a39a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy,=A0

Yes, I have checked for leaks, but will check = it again to be certain. =A0I've been wondering if a small vacuum chambe= r, with three lines from the rotors and one out to EC-2, would be a better = solution. =A0Or, possibly only use vacuum from one rotor and dedicated to t= he EC-2 only. =A0

Mark

On Sat, Jan 21, = 2012 at 7:53 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. =A0 Idle MP on a PP engine= will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is w= ay out of the ball park.=A0 Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on r= pm.=A0 17" is=A0 where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise!=A0 My 20B= is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" = Hg!=A0

So,=A0 that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you A= LREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP reading= s.=A0 I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went = bad and started leaking.

=A0If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely w= ould NOT WORK. =A0 Have you ever tested the plumbing?=A0 Just disconnect th= e MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the= vacuum.=A0 If not, you have a leak.

Tracy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 P= M, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,=A0

The reservoir idea is the next thing I'l= l try if this doesn't work out. =A0But so far, this looks good.

Mark=A0


On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd e= xpect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there&= #39;s no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right?

Charlie


On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:
Tracy,=A0

OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. =A0Any ideas on what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? =A0Calibrated air bleeds?

Mark

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0

Thanks,=A0I'll check that, but remember... I've go= t three of those "suckers" and they're working overtime= .

Mark =A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are "good" ie, don't leak,=A0 the MP won= 9;t go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle (especially if done rapidly)..=A0=A0 Check your throttle response to be sure the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO.

Tracy

=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= wrote:
I made a major breakthrough today. =A0In preparation for hooking up my new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. =A0(For those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide throttle TB.) =A0My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports in each rotor housing. =A0Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. =A0Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was approx. 17". =A0This has been bugging me, = but it didn't stop me from flying. =A0Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4"= - 15.0" range. =A0Then it dawned on me that = the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see an average of all three rotors. =A0Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for each rotor. =A0By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. =A0Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. =A0I'll probably re-set the EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very beginning. =A0

I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. =A0Your EC-2/3 will thank you for it. =A0

Mark







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