X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTPS id 5358835 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:53:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by lahd3 with SMTP id d3so700369lah.25 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:53:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=O+n7aOs+icfaxPkQF8oMv/K1AjxwoJ32/27DcGALdRA=; b=pSjP4ePjWxD0JBScxya40kkLhYC0Nh9FC+6cA4XvpU87Z7vD1ufm7oCYVpduin5KlZ g/oCn/sNEdwbiuHUL05nu2w2AsZ7c/PkcEV+IvrSlkPAVDj5fonffbYvZSHFGBU9dGV4 6RtahSVDSZHJLogF4juuq1bDQxuu62LaKrM0M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.147.137 with SMTP id tk9mr865672lab.8.1327153984636; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.1.200 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2012 05:53:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 08:53:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: P-port breakthrough From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2348abd1071b04b70a1d8b --e89a8f2348abd1071b04b70a1d8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. Idle MP on a PP engine will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is way out of the ball park. Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on rpm. 17" is where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise! My 20B is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" Hg! So, that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you ALREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP readings. I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went bad and started leaking. If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely would NOT WORK. Have you ever tested the plumbing? Just disconnect the MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the vacuum. If not, you have a leak. Tracy On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Charlie, > > The reservoir idea is the next thing I'll try if this doesn't work out. > But so far, this looks good. > > Mark > > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Charlie England wrote: > >> Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal >> MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each rotor), do >> you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, with a small >> air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on >> that line? I'd expect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if >> there's no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the >> snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume >> that there's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a >> user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right? >> >> Charlie >> >> >> On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >> Tracy, >> >> OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. Any ideas on >> what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? >> Calibrated air bleeds? >> >> Mark >> >> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >>> Tracy, >>> >>> Thanks, I'll check that, but remember... I've got three of those >>> "suckers" and they're working overtime. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy wrote: >>> >>>> Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are "good" >>>> ie, don't leak, the MP won't go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the >>>> engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle >>>> (especially if done rapidly).. Check your throttle response to be sure >>>> the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO. >>>> >>>> Tracy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>>> >>>>> I made a major breakthrough today. In preparation for hooking up my >>>>> new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install >>>>> check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. (For >>>>> those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide >>>>> throttle TB.) My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports >>>>> in each rotor housing. Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right >>>>> then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. >>>>> Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was >>>>> approx. 17". This has been bugging me, but it didn't stop me from flying. >>>>> Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4" - 15.0" range. Then it >>>>> dawned on me that the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see >>>>> an average of all three rotors. Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) >>>>> apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for >>>>> each rotor. By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now >>>>> isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. >>>>> Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way >>>>> lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. I'll probably re-set the >>>>> EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very >>>>> beginning. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in >>>>> the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. Your >>>>> EC-2/3 will thank you for it. >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > --e89a8f2348abd1071b04b70a1d8b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still thinking about your symptoms and solution. =A0 Idle MP on a PP engine= will normally be higher than stock but your earlier MP of 17" Hg is w= ay out of the ball park.=A0 Stock is in the range of 11 - 12 depending on r= pm.=A0 17" is=A0 where my 13B engine runs at economy cruise!=A0 My 20B= is at even lower (15.5 - 16) and will maintain level flight at 14.2" = Hg!=A0

So,=A0 that along with your check valve results make me wonder if you A= LREADY have a leak in the MP plumbing creating artificially high MP reading= s.=A0 I had this condition when the MP sensor in my Bluemountain EFIS went = bad and started leaking.

=A0If the check valves and your plumbing are leak free, it definitely w= ould NOT WORK. =A0 Have you ever tested the plumbing?=A0 Just disconnect th= e MP line at the engine and suck on the end and see if the system holds the= vacuum.=A0 If not, you have a leak.

Tracy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 10:13 P= M, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,=A0

The reservoir idea is the next thing I'l= l try if this doesn't work out. =A0But so far, this looks good.

<= div> Mark=A0


On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at = 8:15 PM, Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wro= te:
=20 =20 =20
Assuming well designed intake & exhaust manifolds (& substantially equal MAP in each rotor measured at the same intake position of each rotor), do you need 3 feeds to one sensor? Have you tried using just one, with a small air reservoir for 'inertial damping' (averaging) of the fluctuating MAP on that line? I'd e= xpect that the computer is taking 'snapshots' of MAP, & if there&= #39;s no plenum to give it an averaged pressure to look at, then the snapshots would be all over the map (pardon the pun...). Also, I assume that there's no way to force the computer to take its snapshot a user-selectable point in the intake cycle, right?

Charlie


On 01/20/2012 07:02 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:
Tracy,=A0

OK, what you said just registered in the grey matter. =A0Any ideas on what to do if the MAP does't come up fast enough resulting in bogging? =A0Calibrated air bleeds?

Mark

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0

Thanks,=A0I'll check that, but remember... I've go= t three of those "suckers" and they're working overtime= .

Mark =A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds like it's working for you but if those check valves are "good" ie, don't leak,=A0 the MP won= 9;t go up fast enough at the EC2/3 port and the engine will probably bog down and die when you open the throttle (especially if done rapidly)..=A0=A0 Check your throttle response to be sure the EC2/3 sees the true MP when you go to WFO.

Tracy

=A0

On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= wrote:
I made a major breakthrough today. =A0In preparation for hooking up my new Hytek data logger, I decided that it would be a good idea to install check valves in the vacuum lines leading from each rotor housing. =A0(For those who are unaware, I am running a peripheral port 3-rotor with a slide throttle TB.) =A0My system measures MAP from the unused oil injection ports in each rotor housing. =A0Not sure what possessed me to do a ground run right then, but I decided to do a ground run after installing the check valves. =A0Now keep in mind that typical MAP readings at idle up to this point was approx. 17". =A0This has been bugging me, = but it didn't stop me from flying. =A0Well, today's MAP readings were in the 14.4"= - 15.0" range. =A0Then it dawned on me that = the way the vacuum lines were plumbed the EC-2 would see an average of all three rotors. =A0Since each rotor is 120* (crank degrees) apart in their 4-stroke cycle, the MAP would be quite a bit different for each rotor. =A0By installing check valves in the vacuum lines, I have now isolated each rotor from the other two and am measuring the lowest vacuum. =A0Idle is now down to a respectable 1500 rpm, but the mixture has gone way lean, so it appears that a re-tune is in order. =A0I'll probably re-set the EC-2 to the factory defaults and start the process over from the very beginning. =A0

I would like to strongly suggest to anyone that is measuring MAP in the rotor housings to install check valves in each of the lines. =A0Your EC-2/3 will thank you for it. =A0

Mark






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