X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5354169 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:11:18 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.208.4.194; envelope-from=patrick@hoffmann1.net Received: from oxusltgw12.schlund.de (oxusltgw12.lxa.perfora.net [172.19.206.14]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MFtj4-1Rr57f23c6-00EOiH; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:10:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:10:41 -0500 (EST) From: Patrick Reply-To: Patrick To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1793287378.686159.1326838241399.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: tuning advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_686158_2121982086.1326838241274" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v- X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:RlLps3oNi4oPXG6ZEXIXSMrmnzgEGPhJIKMHeAveVTA n/XhVhQrB0j5snhS6FJfzEHtGbz5jPlfXhhHPu8E98cV4leZyr t6VFjTX1AZ1oa6NgtgDKlZDK0XADwNysSjPmo8Cc4CP0GVwQ+Y KOMLrns2602qt073Zc+mdFnH5P42mEcPkQI8lhIs8+ENK8VTxB 2b1YKT30A6uLrFdp9HnSAxvd1exR0u+hLy//RbLYBKlS9l1Pbn dCiabVoF4Rgr60yAVlCkPz4LDngFa1BmJX1rf6GamK81MnZKoo ZLpafGXNGFCfIZ/jyBGJ1IwJDyQPmfG2WVsj2OYBzYEDvlJrvT Z1NYR2u05VsbjvOwA8GajpabruwEOpjEzqWg0uKksGpDoO+uKE D3VzwmLIRNXPuJ3ucmuD7DaqV1eO18+y2n5Ylh63uXEPG15wE5 YyXcZ ------=_Part_686158_2121982086.1326838241274 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.rx7.net.nz/REbyKenichiYamamoto-1981.pdf =C2=A0 On January 17, 2012 at 3:39 PM Chad Robinson w= rote: > A little Googling turned this up: > http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?pid=3D8400208 > > On 1/17/12 2:31 PM, Ernest Christley wrote: > > If you haven't done it, spend some time with "Rotary Engines" by Kenich= i > > Yamamoto.=C2=A0 Lynn sent out a link to it in 2008, > > but I downloaded and started reading it on the treadmill last week.=C2= =A0 The > > first chapter is some interesting history.=C2=A0 The > > second is a lot of math, that some may find interesting.=C2=A0 I just s= kimmed > > it.=C2=A0 But starting in Chapter 3, it gets REALLY > > interesting, and explains how a lot of these factors affect one another= . > > > > In particular, it explains what it calls a 3:3 burn pattern when there = is a > > lot of overlap.=C2=A0 The first time around, the > > three chambers have fresh charge, so they burn normally and produce pow= er.=C2=A0 > > The next time around, the exhaust gasses > > push back the fresh intake, to the point that the mixture won't burn.= =C2=A0 So > > you get three unburnable charges.=C2=A0 The next > > time around you get some mixture of unburnt charge from the previous, b= urned > > gasses from two cycles ago, and new mixture > > from the current charge.=C2=A0 If that actually fires off, the next cyc= le will > > have an overload of burnt exhaust, and won't. > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Then it all repeats. > > > > > > Lehanover@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 1/17/2012 6:47:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > >> msteitle@gmail.com writes: > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lynn, > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks so much for a very detailed reply.=C2=A0 It= sounds like the > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 factory EC-2 setting for advance will be pretty cl= ose for cruise > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (5200 rpm) mode for my p-port engine.=C2=A0 I usua= lly lean pretty > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 aggressively, so maybe a couple of degrees would b= e in order. > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Can you tell me if its normal for the MAP to be di= fferent for p-port > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 engines, particularly around idle (1800 rpm)?=C2= =A0 My MAP readings are > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 approx. 17.0 - 17.3 at idle.=C2=A0 This is about 2= " higher that with my > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 side-port engine.=C2=A0 I'm thinking this is becau= se of the much higher > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 intake/exhaust overlap with the p-port engine. > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks, > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark > >> > >> > >> Everything affects everything, all of the time. > >> > >> So where the side port can have less overlap, or even no overlap in th= e > >> case of the Renesis, the Pport has a lot of overlap. So, the Pport is > >> easily affected by exhaust system and muffler design. At any particula= r > >> RPM a wildly differing set of factors plays out inside the engine. The > >> most obvious is the exhaust gasses re-entering the chamber diluting th= e > >> intake charge, and making it over rich (because some of the oxygen > >> bearing charge has be displaced and the fuel delivery has remained > >> unchanged. This whole scenario may change just a few RPM up or down th= e > >> range. > >> > >> So you might get it idling really well today, and in the morning it > >> barely runs at all until the oil temps come up a bit. What could cause > >> that? The cold rotors are condensing fuel back into droplets, which > >> makes for less surface area to mate up with any oxygen, and the engine > >> is now very much over lean. Everything affects everything. > >> > >> If you have fiddled with dirt bike engines, this all comes to be very > >> clear. There is a similar interaction between intake design and exhaus= t > >> design in a piston port 2 cycle engine. > >> > >> Notice the strange mufflers on those bikes. A seemingly over sized > >> muffler ending with a very small tube that seems far too small to make > >> any power. And still it works. > >> > >> The rotary is a 4 stroke Otto cycle engine that tunes like a 2 stroke > >> dirt bike engine. > >> Less so for little or no overlap. Much more so for lots of overlap lik= e > >> the Pport. > >> > >> So, it will never tune up in idle quite as well as a side port. But th= e > >> higher the idle RPM you can stand the better it will be. Another facto= r > >> that removes the engine from its car like idle, is the fact that the > >> prop load is higher than the engine would see in just stirring up tran= s > >> oil at idle. So instead of say 3 HP required to idle you may need12 or > >> 15 HP to spin that prop even 1,000 RPM. > >> > >> Your first Viking departure will make it all worth the trip. > >> > >> Lynn E. Hanover > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 > =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_Part_686158_2121982086.1326838241274 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.rx7.net.nz/REbyKenichiYamamoto-1981.pdf

 


On January 17, 2012 at 3:39 PM Chad Robinson <crobinson@medialantern.com> wrote:

> A little Googling turned this up:
> http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?pid=8400208
>
> On 1/17/12 2:31 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> > If you haven't done it, spend some time with "Rotary Engines" by Kenichi Yamamoto.  Lynn sent out a link to it in 2008,
> > but I downloaded and started reading it on the treadmill last week.  The first chapter is some interesting history.  The
> > second is a lot of math, that some may find interesting.  I just skimmed it.  But starting in Chapter 3, it gets REALLY
> > interesting, and explains how a lot of these factors affect one another.
> >
> > In particular, it explains what it calls a 3:3 burn pattern when there is a lot of overlap.  The first time around, the
> > three chambers have fresh charge, so they burn normally and produce power.  The next time around, the exhaust gasses
> > push back the fresh intake, to the point that the mixture won't burn.  So you get three unburnable charges.  The next
> > time around you get some mixture of unburnt charge from the previous, burned gasses from two cycles ago, and new mixture
> > from the current charge.  If that actually fires off, the next cycle will have an overload of burnt exhaust, and won't.
> >   Then it all repeats.
> >
> >
> > Lehanover@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 1/17/2012 6:47:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> msteitle@gmail.com writes:
> >>
> >>      Lynn,
> >>
> >>      Thanks so much for a very detailed reply.  It sounds like the
> >>      factory EC-2 setting for advance will be pretty close for cruise
> >>      (5200 rpm) mode for my p-port engine.  I usually lean pretty
> >>      aggressively, so maybe a couple of degrees would be in order.
> >>
> >>      Can you tell me if its normal for the MAP to be different for p-port
> >>      engines, particularly around idle (1800 rpm)?  My MAP readings are
> >>      approx. 17.0 - 17.3 at idle.  This is about 2" higher that with my
> >>      side-port engine.  I'm thinking this is because of the much higher
> >>      intake/exhaust overlap with the p-port engine.
> >>
> >>      Thanks,
> >>      Mark
> >>
> >>
> >> Everything affects everything, all of the time.
> >>
> >> So where the side port can have less overlap, or even no overlap in the
> >> case of the Renesis, the Pport has a lot of overlap. So, the Pport is
> >> easily affected by exhaust system and muffler design. At any particular
> >> RPM a wildly differing set of factors plays out inside the engine. The
> >> most obvious is the exhaust gasses re-entering the chamber diluting the
> >> intake charge, and making it over rich (because some of the oxygen
> >> bearing charge has be displaced and the fuel delivery has remained
> >> unchanged. This whole scenario may change just a few RPM up or down the
> >> range.
> >>
> >> So you might get it idling really well today, and in the morning it
> >> barely runs at all until the oil temps come up a bit. What could cause
> >> that? The cold rotors are condensing fuel back into droplets, which
> >> makes for less surface area to mate up with any oxygen, and the engine
> >> is now very much over lean. Everything affects everything.
> >>
> >> If you have fiddled with dirt bike engines, this all comes to be very
> >> clear. There is a similar interaction between intake design and exhaust
> >> design in a piston port 2 cycle engine.
> >>
> >> Notice the strange mufflers on those bikes. A seemingly over sized
> >> muffler ending with a very small tube that seems far too small to make
> >> any power. And still it works.
> >>
> >> The rotary is a 4 stroke Otto cycle engine that tunes like a 2 stroke
> >> dirt bike engine.
> >> Less so for little or no overlap. Much more so for lots of overlap like
> >> the Pport.
> >>
> >> So, it will never tune up in idle quite as well as a side port. But the
> >> higher the idle RPM you can stand the better it will be. Another factor
> >> that removes the engine from its car like idle, is the fact that the
> >> prop load is higher than the engine would see in just stirring up trans
> >> oil at idle. So instead of say 3 HP required to idle you may need12 or
> >> 15 HP to spin that prop even 1,000 RPM.
> >>
> >> Your first Viking departure will make it all worth the trip.
> >>
> >> Lynn E. Hanover
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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