X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5353447 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:13:52 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=JJy5Qr2b c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=Isu7MHhDbbsA:10 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=KQ1Wv_bSAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=Eu7YxeYiAAAA:8 a=JENGh5Vhz7wY6PUoUqoA:9 a=cjQXFMkbo_kFrpt7aIIA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=LKehEgn9J7AA:10 a=iKhjpyunHcQA:10 a=AcSaDQtcpv8A:10 a=oGCKCRYxw08A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=WGqnFp7Peav3ZlN1:21 a=wwsbhUoUgC2AuEad:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=XEZG-EO5TttsqQiEtngA:9 a=wgmkUK-21fpp9CN2PS0A:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=QSmc0Ec9vTIA:10 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:54232] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 24/2F-18618-C00951F4; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:13:16 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:12:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01CCD500.90AB3F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CCD500.90AB3F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gordon, Response to each question you asked below - hope it helps. 1. The curved blue tube (I can not remember whether 1/2 or 3/4" dia - = but its diameter fits almost perfectly up into the oil intake hole in = the block (where the normal oil pickup is attached). I use the stock = gasket on the inside over the oil intake hole and on the outside of the = plate I have a 3/8" thick block with a hole in the center for the tube = and two holes on each side using the oil pick-up mounting bolt holes in = the block. The outside block around the tube has a concave "O" ring = capture on the inside between block and oil plate. This is essential to = make an air tight seal around the oil tube. VERY important to have no = air leaks. The end of the blue cruved tube which extends through the = plate goes into the block's oil pickup hole and then the 3/8" block = (with "O" ring) is tighten down through the plate and into the block = holes normally used for bolting the stock oil pickup onto the block. 2. Yes, the slump is actually a 10-12" long section of 4" rectangular = tubing with the ends welded close it is welded to the oil plate. = Actually the sump section is welded to a 1" x 1" rectangular tube which = stand off the sump so you can get to the lower bolts holding the plate = to the bottom of the engine block. This 1x1 has a number of 1/2" holes = through it to the top of the sump and the oil flow from the engine = block to the sump through them. 3. I forget exactly - approx 3 -4 quarts. The entire oil system (oil = filter, oil cooler, sump, gearbox, etc) holds around 5-51/2 quarts. = Since my rotary uses no oil between oil changes - it is more than = adequate. In fact for the 1st 160 hours I did not have the sump and = just flew with an regular oil pan. In that configuration I could not = put more than about 3 1/2 quarts in the system - or else it would cover = the oil drain back from the center housing and oil would get blow = through the oil-filler tube. So you will also need to block the stock = oil filler tube (at least if you follow my sump design). I find one of = those rubber type stoppers you an find in the auto stores does the job = fine. 4. The oil pump is in the engine block and the upper end of the curved = blue tube goes through the covering plate directly into the oil pickup = hole in the block. The tube extends into the hole approx 3/4" and is = surrounded on the inside by the stock gasket and on the outside by the = "O" ring I mentioned in 2. 5. I have a 1991 turbo block sans turbo - I have turbo charged autos = and have two stock turbochargers in my shop - but, after considering I = almost never fly full power (except for take off) the extra power, = weight, complexity, etc - just was not worth it for my intended use. = Other intended uses (such as Dave's air racing, or short field at high = altitude) may make a turbo well worth while. 6. Real World Solutions RD-1 2.85:1 redrive currently - but, I used his = 2.17:1 for the first 200 hours or so. The 2:17:1 rotates the prop = opposite to conventional aircraft engines. The 2.85:1 permitted higher = engine rpm for take off, permitted me to put a larger (slower turning) = prop which pays off greatly for take off performance and I had ground = clearance for a larger prop. 7. I use Performance Propellers 74x88 prop which gives me 6000-6100 = static rpm. It really makes the take off performance nice. Yes, always welcome to come by, Gordon. Just give a call or drop a line = to make certain I am here (am most of the time as I am mostly retired = {:>)) - just build a few electronic instruments for the experimental = aircraft market. Ed Edward L. Anderson 704 821 7595 Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:00 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Ed, =20 Thanks for the input and encouragement. I'd like to know more about the = oil sump. =20 1. Is the curved blue tube that you mentioned a breather? Or, = does it carry oil somewhere? =20 2. I assume you have holes at the base of the plate (replacing the = oil pan) that allow oil to drain into the sump. Is that correct? 3. How much oil does your sump hold? 4. (I'm still quite ignorant) Where is the oil pump and how does = it feed from the external sump? 5. (Different topic) Is your engine turbo charged? If so, which = turbo? 6. Whose redrive do you use? What modifications did you have to = make to accommodate the engine orientation? 7. Did you design your engine mount? Did you do any structural = analysis on the mount? What g-loads did you use for design? What does = your engine/redrive/prop weigh? 8. What prop are you using? =20 Soooo many questions. Thanks in advance for the info. I'm in = Fredericksburg, VA. Perhaps I could drop by Weddington to see your RV = sometime? =20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. =20 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list =20 Hi Gordon, =20 Welcome to the Fly Rotary list. I am probably one of the few (I am only = aware of two now flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there = may be more, but unknown to me. I have flown my installation for close = to 12 years with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a = (Tractor installation). =20 There are no technical reasons that I have found precluding safely = flying Plugs Up. In fact, there are some advantages. The biggest = disadvantage is that almost all vendor products (such as motor mounts, = gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile orientation - so some = one-off parts and modifications may be necessary. =20 =20 Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - = you can see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has a plate = covering the engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine line. = The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum tubing. = Do NOT use anything other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel = braided hose, can possible collapse under the suction when hot. Also = any air leaks in that particular tube - will mean the ability of the oil = pump to suck oil will be compromised. I know of one instance where a = hose (instead of metal tube) was used and eventually collapse - starving = engine bearings and causing engine to seize. =20 =20 Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget worrying about flooding = the Plugs Up engine. The plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the = bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the = sparkplug holes. 2: The fuel injectors in the block are not directly = over the exhaust ports as they are in the auto installation. Gravity = will cause any fuel leaks at the injectors to drop straight down missing = the hot metal of the exhaust header (unless of course, you route your = exhaust header under the injector area). I think the spark plugs are = also easier to access - a minor point. =20 My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to = the front aluminum housing) intended for mounting air conditioning = components to support the "rear" of the engine. Then I pick up the bolt = holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to = support the front. These pickups use a triangular plate of metal with = the small end attached to the motor mount with one bolt and the base of = it attached to the engine through two bolts which also hold the gearbox = to the rear housing. Photo attached which may help explain it better. = There are certainly other (and perhaps better ways), but this has worked = for me. =20 But, lots of information on this list will be applicable regardless of = engine orientation. =20 Best Regards =20 Ed =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com =20 =20 =20 From: Gordon Alling=20 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list =20 Hi all, =20 I'm new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building a Defiant with two = turbo 13Bs. I am looking at mounting the engines "plugs up" as = described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com = address listed on the FR website. My e-mail keeps bouncing back. Does = anyone have a current address for Neil? =20 Beyond that, I would like to identify others that have mounted these = engines sideways (plugs-up). How many hours do your projects have on = these installations? What issues have you uncovered that may be related = to the plugs-up orientation? Has anyone found (more than expected) = difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling = jacket? =20 What about engine mounting? How do you grab the engine block? Have you = looked at the stresses at the attach points? =20 I'm also considering a constant speed prop. Tracy Crook advises me that = his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props and I have = identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers. Are there other = electrically adjustable props in this power category? Are there other = PSRUs that accept a hydraulically actuated prop adjustment? =20 Thanks in advance for any advice you all can offer. =20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. =20 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01CCD500.90AB3F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gordon,
 
Response to each question you asked below - hope = it=20 helps.
 
1.  The curved blue tube (I can not = remember whether=20 1/2 or 3/4" dia - but its diameter fits almost perfectly up into the oil = intake=20 hole in the block (where the normal oil pickup is attached).  I use = the=20 stock gasket on the inside over the oil intake hole and on the outside = of the=20 plate I have a 3/8" thick block with a hole in the center for the tube = and two=20 holes on each side using the oil pick-up mounting bolt holes in the = block. =20 The  outside block around the tube has a concave "O" ring capture = on the=20 inside between block and oil plate.  This is essential to make an = air tight=20 seal around the oil tube.  VERY important to have no air = leaks.  The=20 end of the blue cruved tube which extends through the plate goes into = the=20 block's oil pickup hole and then the 3/8" block (with "O" ring) is = tighten down=20 through the plate and into the block holes normally used for bolting the = stock=20 oil pickup onto the block.
 
2.  Yes, the slump is actually a 10-12" = long section=20 of 4" rectangular tubing with the ends welded close it is welded to the = oil=20 plate.  Actually the sump section is welded to a 1" x 1" = rectangular tube=20 which stand off the sump so you can get to the lower bolts holding the = plate to=20 the bottom of the engine block.  This 1x1 has a number of 1/2" = holes=20 through it to the top of the  sump and the oil flow from the engine = block=20 to the sump through them.
 
3.  I forget exactly - approx 3 -4 = quarts.  The=20 entire oil system (oil filter, oil cooler, sump, gearbox, etc) holds = around=20 5-51/2 quarts.  Since my rotary uses no oil between oil changes = -  it=20 is more than adequate.  In fact for the 1st 160 hours I did not = have the=20 sump and just flew with an regular oil pan.  In that configuration = I could=20 not put more than about 3 1/2 quarts in the system - or else it would = cover the=20 oil  drain back from the center housing and oil would get blow = through the=20 oil-filler tube.  So you will also need to block the stock oil = filler tube=20 (at least if you follow my sump design).  I find one of those = rubber type=20 stoppers you an find in the auto stores does the job fine.
 
4.  The oil pump is in the engine block and = the upper=20 end of the curved blue tube goes through the covering plate directly = into the=20 oil pickup hole in the block.  The tube extends into the hole = approx 3/4"=20 and is surrounded on the inside by the stock gasket and on the outside = by the=20 "O" ring I mentioned in 2.
 
5.  I have a 1991 turbo block sans turbo - = I have=20 turbo charged autos and have two stock turbochargers in my shop - but, = after=20 considering I almost never fly full power (except for take off) the = extra power,=20 weight, complexity, etc - just was not worth it for my intended = use.  Other=20 intended uses (such as Dave's air racing, or short field at high = altitude) may=20 make a turbo well worth while.
 
6.  Real World Solutions RD-1 2.85:1 = redrive=20 currently - but, I used his 2.17:1 for the first 200 hours or so.  = The=20 2:17:1 rotates the prop opposite to conventional aircraft engines.  = The=20 2.85:1 permitted higher engine rpm for take off, permitted me to put a = larger=20 (slower turning) prop which pays off greatly for take off performance = and I had=20 ground clearance for a larger prop.
 
7.  I use Performance Propellers 74x88 prop = which=20 gives me 6000-6100 static rpm.  It really makes the take off = performance=20 nice.
 
Yes, always welcome to come by, Gordon.  = Just give a=20 call or drop a line to make certain I am here (am most of the time as I = am=20 mostly retired {:>)) - just build a few electronic instruments for = the=20 experimental aircraft market.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
704 821 7595
Anderson Electronic Enterprises = LLC
305=20 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 9:00 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list

Ed,

 

Thanks for the input = and=20 encouragement.  I=92d like to know more about the oil sump. =20

1.      =20 Is the curved blue = tube that=20 you mentioned a breather?  Or, does it carry oil somewhere? =20

2.      =20 I assume you have = holes at the=20 base of the plate (replacing the oil pan) that allow oil to drain into = the=20 sump.  Is that correct?

3.      =20 How much oil does = your sump=20 hold?

4.      =20 (I=92m still quite = ignorant)=20 Where is the oil pump and how does it feed from the external=20 sump?

5.      =20 (Different = topic)  Is=20 your engine turbo charged?  If so, which = turbo?

6.      =20 Whose redrive do you = use?  What modifications did you have to make to accommodate the = engine=20 orientation?

7.      =20 Did you design your = engine=20 mount?  Did you do any structural analysis on the mount?  What = g-loads=20 did you use for design?  What does your engine/redrive/prop=20 weigh?

8.      =20 What prop are you=20 using?

 

Soooo many = questions. =20 Thanks in advance for the info.  I=92m in Fredericksburg, VA.  = Perhaps I=20 could drop by Weddington to see your RV sometime?

 

Gordon C. Alling, = Jr.,=20 PE

President

acumen Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:28 AM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to=20 list

 

Hi=20 Gordon,

 

Welcome to = the Fly=20 Rotary list.  I am probably one of the few (I am only aware of two = now=20 flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there may be more, but = unknown=20 to me.  I have flown my installation for close to 12 years with = around 600=20 hours on the installation in my RV-6a (Tractor = installation).

 

There are = no=20 technical reasons that I have found precluding safely flying Plugs = Up.  In=20 fact, there are some advantages.  The biggest disadvantage is that = almost=20 all vendor products (such as motor mounts, gear boxes, etc) are designed = for the=20 automobile orientation - so some one-off parts and modifications may be=20 necessary. 

 

Also, You = will almost=20 certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - you can see my = (red/blue) oil=20 sump in the one photo which has a plate covering the engine "bottom" and = a=20 sump(red box) below the engine line.  The curved blue tube (from = top of=20 sump into plate is aluminum tubing.  Do NOT use anything other than = metal=20 tubing - hose, even stainless steel braided hose, can possible collapse = under=20 the suction when hot.  Also any air leaks in that particular tube - = will=20 mean the ability of the oil pump to suck oil will be = compromised.   I=20 know of one instance where a hose (instead of metal tube) was used and=20 eventually collapse - starving engine bearings and causing engine to=20 seize.  

 

Two = advantages are 1:=20 You can just about forget worrying about flooding the Plugs Up = engine.  The=20 plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the bottom - so excess fuel = quickly drains=20 out and does not flood the sparkplug holes.  2:  The fuel = injectors in=20 the block are not directly over the exhaust ports as they are in the = auto=20 installation.  Gravity will cause any fuel leaks at the injectors = to drop=20 straight down missing the hot metal of the exhaust header (unless of = course, you=20 route your exhaust header under the injector area).  I think the = spark=20 plugs are also easier to access - a minor point.

 

My engine = uses the=20 engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to the front aluminum=20  housing) intended for mounting air conditioning components to = support the=20 "rear" of the engine.  Then I pick up the bolt holes in the rear = iron=20 housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to support the = front. These=20 pickups use a triangular plate of metal with the small end = attached to the=20 motor mount with one bolt and the base of it attached to = the engine=20 through two bolts which  also hold the gearbox to the rear = housing. =20  Photo attached which may help explain it better.  There are = certainly=20 other (and perhaps better ways), but this has worked for me.

 

But, lots = of=20 information on this list will be applicable regardless of engine=20 orientation.

 

Best=20 Regards

 

Ed

 

Edward L.=20 Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton=20 Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com=

 

 

 

From: Gordon = Alling=20

Sent: Sunday, = January 15,=20 2012 8:29 AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Newbie=20 to list

 

Hi all,

 

I=92m new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am = building a Defiant=20 with two turbo 13Bs.  I am looking at mounting the engines =93plugs = up=94 as=20 described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com = address=20 listed on the FR website.  My e-mail keeps bouncing back. =  Does anyone=20 have a current address for Neil?

 

Beyond that, I would like to identify others that = have=20 mounted these engines sideways (plugs-up).  How many hours do your = projects=20 have on these installations?  What issues have you uncovered that = may be=20 related to the plugs-up orientation?  Has anyone found (more than = expected)=20 difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling=20 jacket?

 

What about engine mounting?  How do you grab = the engine=20 block?  Have you looked at the stresses at the attach=20 points?

 

I=92m also considering a constant speed prop.  = Tracy Crook=20 advises me that his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props = and I=20 have identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers.  Are there other=20 electrically adjustable props in this power category?  Are there = other=20 PSRUs that accept a hydraulically actuated prop = adjustment?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all can=20 offer.

 

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

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