X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5351362 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:23:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=JJy5Qr2b c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=Isu7MHhDbbsA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=Eu7YxeYiAAAA:8 a=KQ1Wv_bSAAAA:8 a=M0UAgHqTC-G5RZ8FW4gA:9 a=NZq5iDRlURIl5gEVxb8A:7 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=iKhjpyunHcQA:10 a=AcSaDQtcpv8A:10 a=oGCKCRYxw08A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=zyCxUc7-uuR_riqB:21 a=ST9D3Iz_khE66I8o:21 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=fwU4dYBwAxe-BkOo664A:9 a=a4Kvd7G9_2PIJAqdJpgA:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=QSmc0Ec9vTIA:10 a=ihMog3RGBQFVZ22R:21 a=ozqTPsT_cbZSmxAl:21 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:65356] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 5B/54-18618-1A3431F4; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 16:22:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01CCD3A1.DABAC390" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CCD3A1.DABAC390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No problem, Chris - no offense taken - even though the advantages are = HUGE!!! {:>). You are right, had I not had clearance problems, I problem would not = have gone with plugs -up. Like I mentioned, probably the biggest = disadvantage is all the vendors make their products for the normal = orientation (naturally) . Ed From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:34 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Ed, I didn't mean any disrespect on saying you plugs up reasons were pretty = minor, just in comparison to some of the potential challenges. I reread = it and it seemed arrogant of me which was not my intent. Heck, you are = flying, I am not....You are the steely eyed engineer pilot = type.....well, we mostly know what I do (lawyer and cop.....no = comparison to real usefulness ;-)). I want to keep my armature standing = as an engineer (and OBGYN...) Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:27 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Hi Gordon, Welcome to the Fly Rotary list. I am probably one of the few (I am only = aware of two now flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there = may be more, but unknown to me. I have flown my installation for close = to 12 years with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a = (Tractor installation). There are no technical reasons that I have found precluding safely = flying Plugs Up. In fact, there are some advantages. The biggest = disadvantage is that almost all vendor products (such as motor mounts, = gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile orientation - so some = one-off parts and modifications may be necessary. =20 Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - = you can see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has a plate = covering the engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine line. = The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum tubing. = Do NOT use anything other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel = braided hose, can possible collapse under the suction when hot. Also = any air leaks in that particular tube - will mean the ability of the oil = pump to suck oil will be compromised. I know of one instance where a = hose (instead of metal tube) was used and eventually collapse - starving = engine bearings and causing engine to seize. =20 Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget worrying about flooding = the Plugs Up engine. The plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the = bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the = sparkplug holes. 2: The fuel injectors in the block are not directly = over the exhaust ports as they are in the auto installation. Gravity = will cause any fuel leaks at the injectors to drop straight down missing = the hot metal of the exhaust header (unless of course, you route your = exhaust header under the injector area). I think the spark plugs are = also easier to access - a minor point. My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to = the front aluminum housing) intended for mounting air conditioning = components to support the "rear" of the engine. Then I pick up the bolt = holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to = support the front. These pickups use a triangular plate of metal with = the small end attached to the motor mount with one bolt and the base of = it attached to the engine through two bolts which also hold the gearbox = to the rear housing. Photo attached which may help explain it better. = There are certainly other (and perhaps better ways), but this has worked = for me. But, lots of information on this list will be applicable regardless of = engine orientation. Best Regards Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling=20 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list Hi all, I=92m new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building a Defiant with two = turbo 13Bs. I am looking at mounting the engines =93plugs up=94 as = described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com = address listed on the FR website. My e-mail keeps bouncing back. Does = anyone have a current address for Neil? Beyond that, I would like to identify others that have mounted these = engines sideways (plugs-up). How many hours do your projects have on = these installations? What issues have you uncovered that may be related = to the plugs-up orientation? Has anyone found (more than expected) = difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling = jacket? What about engine mounting? How do you grab the engine block? Have you = looked at the stresses at the attach points? I=92m also considering a constant speed prop. Tracy Crook advises me = that his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props and I have = identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers. Are there other = electrically adjustable props in this power category? Are there other = PSRUs that accept a hydraulically actuated prop adjustment? Thanks in advance for any advice you all can offer. Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01CCD3A1.DABAC390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 No problem, Chris - no offense taken = -  =20 even though the advantages are HUGE!!! {:>).
 
You are right, had I not had clearance problems, = I problem=20 would not have gone with plugs -up.  Like I mentioned, = probably the=20 biggest disadvantage is all the vendors make their products for the = normal=20 orientation (naturally) .
 
Ed
 

From: Chris Barber
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:34 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list

Ed,

 

I didn't mean any disrespect on saying you plugs up reasons were = pretty=20 minor, just in comparison to some of the potential = challenges.  I=20 reread it and it seemed arrogant of me which was not my intent.  = Heck, you=20 are flying, I am not....You are the steely eyed engineer pilot = type.....well, we=20 mostly know what I do (lawyer and cop.....no comparison to=20 real usefulness ;-)).  I want to keep=20 my armature standing as an engineer (and = OBGYN...)

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: = Sunday,=20 January 15, 2012 8:27 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to = list

Hi Gordon,
 
Welcome to the Fly Rotary list.  I am = probably one of=20 the few (I am only aware of two now flying) Plugs Up installations = currently=20 flying - there may be more, but unknown to me.  I have flown my=20 installation for close to 12 years with around 600 hours on the = installation in=20 my RV-6a (Tractor installation).
 
There are no technical reasons that I have found = precluding safely flying Plugs Up.  In fact, there are some=20 advantages.  The biggest disadvantage is that almost all vendor = products=20 (such as motor mounts, gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile=20 orientation - so some one-off parts and modifications may be = necessary. =20
 
Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber = up your own=20 oil sump - you can see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has = a plate=20 covering the engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine = line. =20 The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum = tubing.  Do=20 NOT use anything other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel = braided=20 hose, can possible collapse under the suction when hot.  Also any = air leaks=20 in that particular tube - will mean the ability of the oil pump to suck = oil will=20 be compromised.   I know of one instance where a hose (instead = of=20 metal tube) was used and eventually collapse - starving engine bearings = and=20 causing engine to seize.  
 
Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget = worrying=20 about flooding the Plugs Up engine.  The plugs are on top and = exhaust ports=20 on the bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the = sparkplug holes.  2:  The fuel injectors in the block are not = directly=20 over the exhaust ports as they are in the auto installation.  = Gravity will=20 cause any fuel leaks at the injectors to drop straight down missing the = hot=20 metal of the exhaust header (unless of course, you route your exhaust = header=20 under the injector area).  I think the spark plugs are also easier = to=20 access - a minor point.
 
My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the = front iron=20 housing (next to the front aluminum  housing) intended for mounting = air=20 conditioning components to support the "rear" of the engine.  Then = I pick=20 up the bolt holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on = each side=20 to support the front. These pickups use a triangular plate of metal = with=20 the small end attached to the motor mount with one bolt and the = base=20 of it attached to the engine through two bolts which =  also hold=20 the gearbox to the rear housing.   Photo attached which may = help=20 explain it better.  There are certainly other (and perhaps better = ways),=20 but this has worked for me.
 
But, lots of information on this list will be = applicable=20 regardless of engine orientation.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
 
 

From: Gordon Alling =
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list

Hi all,

 

I=92m new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am = building a Defiant=20 with two turbo 13Bs.  I am looking at mounting the engines =93plugs = up=94 as=20 described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com = address=20 listed on the FR website.  My e-mail keeps bouncing back. =  Does anyone=20 have a current address for Neil?

 

Beyond that, I would like to identify others that = have=20 mounted these engines sideways (plugs-up).  How many hours do your = projects=20 have on these installations?  What issues have you uncovered that = may be=20 related to the plugs-up orientation?  Has anyone found (more than = expected)=20 difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling = jacket?

 

What about engine mounting?  How do you grab = the engine=20 block?  Have you looked at the stresses at the attach points?

 

I=92m also considering a constant speed prop.  = Tracy Crook=20 advises me that his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props = and I=20 have identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers.  Are there other=20 electrically adjustable props in this power category?  Are there = other=20 PSRUs that accept a hydraulically actuated prop adjustment?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all can = offer.

 

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen=20 Engineering/Analysis,=20 Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

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