X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5351313 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:35:03 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE (unverified [172.16.5.23]) by VIRCOM1.fcdata.private (Vircom SMTPRS 5.1.1024.13396) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:33:37 -0600 X-Modus-BlackList: 172.16.5.23=OK;cbarber@texasattorney.net=OK X-Modus-RBL: 172.16.5.23=Excluded X-Modus-Trusted: 172.16.5.23=NO X-Modus-Audit: FALSE;0;0;0 Received: from FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8%17]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:34:26 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Thread-Index: AQHM05IAW2Ps+YXEWkmH5WH6KPfwiZYN0DO+ Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:34:12 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30D94979F8@FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [99.98.105.202] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30D94979F8FCDMAIL05FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30D94979F8FCDMAIL05FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I didn't mean any disrespect on saying you plugs up reasons were pretty min= or, just in comparison to some of the potential challenges. I reread it an= d it seemed arrogant of me which was not my intent. Heck, you are flying, = I am not....You are the steely eyed engineer pilot type.....well, we mostly= know what I do (lawyer and cop.....no comparison to real usefulness ;-)). = I want to keep my armature standing as an engineer (and OBGYN...) Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:27 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Hi Gordon, Welcome to the Fly Rotary list. I am probably one of the few (I am only aw= are of two now flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there may = be more, but unknown to me. I have flown my installation for close to 12 y= ears with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a (Tractor install= ation). There are no technical reasons that I have found precluding safely flying P= lugs Up. In fact, there are some advantages. The biggest disadvantage is = that almost all vendor products (such as motor mounts, gear boxes, etc) are= designed for the automobile orientation - so some one-off parts and modifi= cations may be necessary. Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - you c= an see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has a plate covering t= he engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine line. The curved b= lue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum tubing. Do NOT use anyth= ing other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel braided hose, can = possible collapse under the suction when hot. Also any air leaks in that p= articular tube - will mean the ability of the oil pump to suck oil will be = compromised. I know of one instance where a hose (instead of metal tube) = was used and eventually collapse - starving engine bearings and causing eng= ine to seize. Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget worrying about flooding the= Plugs Up engine. The plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the bottom - s= o excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the sparkplug holes. 2= : The fuel injectors in the block are not directly over the exhaust ports = as they are in the auto installation. Gravity will cause any fuel leaks at= the injectors to drop straight down missing the hot metal of the exhaust h= eader (unless of course, you route your exhaust header under the injector a= rea). I think the spark plugs are also easier to access - a minor point. My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to the= front aluminum housing) intended for mounting air conditioning components= to support the "rear" of the engine. Then I pick up the bolt holes in the= rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to support the front= . These pickups use a triangular plate of metal with the small end attached= to the motor mount with one bolt and the base of it attached to the engine= through two bolts which also hold the gearbox to the rear housing. Phot= o attached which may help explain it better. There are certainly other (an= d perhaps better ways), but this has worked for me. But, lots of information on this list will be applicable regardless of engi= ne orientation. Best Regards Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list Hi all, I=92m new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building a Defiant with two tur= bo 13Bs. I am looking at mounting the engines =93plugs up=94 as described = by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com address listed on= the FR website. My e-mail keeps bouncing back. Does anyone have a curren= t address for Neil? Beyond that, I would like to identify others that have mounted these engine= s sideways (plugs-up). How many hours do your projects have on these insta= llations? What issues have you uncovered that may be related to the plugs-= up orientation? Has anyone found (more than expected) difficulty cooling t= hat may be related to air pockets in the cooling jacket? What about engine mounting? How do you grab the engine block? Have you lo= oked at the stresses at the attach points? I=92m also considering a constant speed prop. Tracy Crook advises me that = his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props and I have identifi= ed IVO and MT as possible suppliers. Are there other electrically adjustab= le props in this power category? Are there other PSRUs that accept a hydra= ulically actuated prop adjustment? Thanks in advance for any advice you all can offer. Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30D94979F8FCDMAIL05FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed,

 

I didn't mean any disrespect on saying you plugs up reasons were pretty = minor, just in comparison to some of the potential challenges. = I reread it and it seemed arrogant of me which was not my intent.  He= ck, you are flying, I am not....You are the steely eyed engineer pilot type.....well, we mostly know what I do (lawyer= and cop.....no comparison to real usefulness ;-)). = ; I want to keep my armature standing as an engineer (and OBGYN= ...)

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:27 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list

Hi Gordon,
 
Welcome to the Fly Rotary list.  I am probab= ly one of the few (I am only aware of two now flying) Plugs Up installation= s currently flying - there may be more, but unknown to me.  I have flo= wn my installation for close to 12 years with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a (Tractor installation).
 
There are no technical reasons that I have found = precluding safely flying Plugs Up.  In fact, there are some advantages= .  The biggest disadvantage is that almost all vendor products (such a= s motor mounts, gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile orientation - so some one-off parts and modifications m= ay be necessary. 
 
Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber up= your own oil sump - you can see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo wh= ich has a plate covering the engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) = below the engine line.  The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum tubing.  Do NOT use anything= other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel braided hose, can pos= sible collapse under the suction when hot.  Also any air leaks in that= particular tube - will mean the ability of the oil pump to suck oil will be compromised.   I know of one in= stance where a hose (instead of metal tube) was used and eventually collaps= e - starving engine bearings and causing engine to seize.  
 
Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget w= orrying about flooding the Plugs Up engine.  The plugs are on top and = exhaust ports on the bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does no= t flood the sparkplug holes.  2:  The fuel injectors in the block are not directly over the exhaust ports as they are= in the auto installation.  Gravity will cause any fuel leaks at the i= njectors to drop straight down missing the hot metal of the exhaust header = (unless of course, you route your exhaust header under the injector area).  I think the spark plugs are also ea= sier to access - a minor point.
 
My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the front= iron housing (next to the front aluminum  housing) intended for mount= ing air conditioning components to support the "rear" of the engi= ne.  Then I pick up the bolt holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to support the front. The= se pickups use a triangular plate of metal with the small end attached = ;to the motor mount with one bolt and the base of it attached to the&n= bsp;engine through two bolts which  also hold the gearbox to the rear housing.   Photo attached which may help explain it = better.  There are certainly other (and perhaps better ways), but this= has worked for me.
 
But, lots of information on this list will be app= licable regardless of engine orientation.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.anderson= ee.com
http://www.eicomma= nder.com
 
 

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list

Hi all,

 

I=92m new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building= a Defiant with two turbo 13Bs.  I am looking at mounting the engines = =93plugs up=94 as described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at th= e home.com address listed on the FR website.  My e-mail keeps bouncing back.  Does anyone have a current address fo= r Neil?

 

Beyond that, I would like to identify others that ha= ve mounted these engines sideways (plugs-up).  How many hours do your = projects have on these installations?  What issues have you uncovered = that may be related to the plugs-up orientation?  Has anyone found (more than expected) difficulty cooling that may be relat= ed to air pockets in the cooling jacket?

 

What about engine mounting?  How do you grab th= e engine block?  Have you looked at the stresses at the attach points?=

 

I=92m also considering a constant speed prop.  = Tracy Crook advises me that his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustab= le props and I have identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers.  Are = there other electrically adjustable props in this power category?  Are there other PSRUs that accept a hydraulically ac= tuated prop adjustment?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice you all can offer.<= /p>

 

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE

President

acumen Engineering/Analysis,= Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

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