X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5344631 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:16:31 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=AqJsLZBP c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=9froP7DjV_UA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=YSyFrgns4xtlShZgWhQA:9 a=jhA9RjXIOCQQFpn4d2IA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=IT2XfEQ9oO4YNwfLodMA:9 a=bSfOHJLBNYQlVTzh8M8A:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:56939] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 71/21-25376-B427C0F4; Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:15:55 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1B Failure Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 12:15:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01CCCF91.96E61390" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CCCF91.96E61390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Mark, I don't know how you folks keeping having all these = catastrophic failures - which are kind enough to let you get back down = under power. =20 Clearly I'm not making the proper sacrifices at the failure-gremlins = altar {:>) Ed From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1B Failure Ed, =20 For the record, I too have experienced two re-drive failures similar to = Dave's. Actually, it was one re-drive failure and one flywheel failure. = =20 First I had a pin failure on the sun gear/input shaft. Like Dave, this = happened on the ground. The pin was upsized to 3/8" and so far it is = working fine. I believe this may have been a result of rough running = partially attributed to my less than perfect tuning techniques as well = as an EC-2 issue with my CAS. Now that the CAS issue has been resolved, = I am cautiously optimistic that this particular failure won't happen = again.=20 The other failure was to the flexplate. While it didn't totally fail, = it was just a matter of time as there were cracks forming in the = vicinity of the big holes. I've replaced the flexplate with a new one = and now check it regularly. One probable cause for the failure was an = out-of-true flexplate. The new one is true within .010". For the record, I'm running a n/a p-ported 20B. I typically see only = limited periods of 300+ hp during takeoff/climbout.=20 Please take good care of YOUR glider trophy, and keep a spot on YOUR = mantle for all to admire. =20 Mark S. =20 On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Well, Dave, I must say you time your failures much better than I do. Your's appear to have the good manners to wait until you are back on = the ground {:>). Actually, its clear your protocol of checking things = after a flight is what has "saved" my glider record {:<( Actually, I am impressed that the RD seems to be fairly robust in = failure modes - in that it appears to keep functioning (more or less), = until you are back on the ground. =20 That kind of HP and the G loading is apparently pushing the RD to its = limits. But, as I am reminded, its only until the limits of anything = are exceeded that you realllllyyyyy know what the limits are - all else = is theoretically {:>). As we both know, it is generally the racer who = finds those limits by pushing the envelop. So Thanks for that valuable information and the seat cushions it may = have taken to get it. Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:32 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1B Failure Hi Ed,=20 Yes you have missed quite a saga and several failures. The underlying = cause of that one seems to be that the auto flex plate fatigued and = broke, leading to the pin failure (oversized pin). I replaced the flex = plate with a modified 4130 flywheel that seems much better suited to the = purpose than the flex-plate. =20 I then had another failure of the RD-1B when the oiling system did not = seem up to the task during my qualifying run at Reno (clocked at 229 mph = while pulling 2Gs around the course). Of course, I was probably making = over 300 h.p. and pushing the RD-1B beyond its design limits. Not to = mention that my oil temps were not being measured well and have probably = always been higher than I thought. I am guessing oil temps were in = excess of 250F when the main plain bearing in the RD-1B seized (after = landing). I have since had another failure. This time the sun gear pin seems to = have simply fallen out! Well, it fell out as much as it could until the = housing would not let it completely go, until the last little piece of = the pin sheared off. This was amazingly, again, discovered on the = ground after a long over-mountainous-terrain flight to Las Vegas. =20 So despite 4 RD-1B failures in 3 different places all in 2011 (the pin = twice, the flex plate, and the main bearing - probably all related to = racing in Reno that year) I have not made any ground toward threatening = your rotary glider time record. :-) --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net=20 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Hey, Dave Glad you didn't further challenge my Glider record {:>).=20 I was thinking that perhaps the stress of the Reno Races might be a = contributing factor to the gear box problem. Particularly if the shear = pin was designed for a N/A 13B. Anyhow, hopefully, it is that simple a = cause and you find no further damage. Send from Lake of The Ozarks resort - looking out over the waves and = reclining in a lounge chair in the cool morning breeze Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:58 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] RD1B Failure Today had a failure of my RD-1B gear drive. It couldn't have = happened at a better time, I was just taxiing off the runway at my home = airport. I just finished flying 200 mi. to Santa Paula to help Paul = with the getting of Mike Wills airplane back into the air. Flight home = was otherwise unevenful and beautiful. I didn't bother taking it apart, = but will do so tomorrow. Feels like I may have broken the sun gear pin = again but will have to wait until tomorrow to be sure. The strange = thing is that nothing particularly stressed it.=20 Sorry there is not cause I can report... a little suspense until = tomorrow. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CCCF91.96E61390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, Mark, I don't know how you folks keeping = having all=20 these catastrophic failures - which are kind enough to let you get back = down=20 under power. 
 
Clearly I'm not making the proper sacrifices at = the=20 failure-gremlins altar {:>)
 
Ed
 
 

From: Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1B Failure

Ed, =20

For the record, I too have experienced two re-drive failures = similar to=20 Dave's.  Actually, it was one re-drive failure and one flywheel = failure.=20  

First I had a pin failure on the sun gear/input shaft.  Like = Dave,=20 this happened on the ground.  The pin was upsized to 3/8" and so = far it is=20 working fine.  I believe this may have been a result of rough = running=20 partially attributed to my less than perfect tuning techniques as well = as an=20 EC-2 issue with my CAS.  Now that the CAS issue has been resolved, = I am=20 cautiously optimistic that this particular failure won't happen=20 again. 

The other failure was to the flexplate.  While it didn't = totally fail,=20 it was just a matter of time as there were cracks forming in the = vicinity of the=20 big holes.  I've replaced the flexplate with a new one and now = check it=20 regularly.  One probable cause for the failure was an out-of-true=20 flexplate.  The new one is true within .010".

For the record, I'm running a n/a p-ported 20B.  I typically = see only=20 limited periods of 300+ hp during takeoff/climbout. 

Please take good care of YOUR glider trophy, and keep a spot on = YOUR mantle=20 for all to admire.  

Mark S.  

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:
Well, Dave,  I must say you time your = failures much=20 better than I do.
 
  Your's appear to have the good manners = to wait=20 until you are back on the ground {:>).  Actually, its clear = your=20 protocol of checking things after a flight is what has "saved" my = glider=20 record {:<(
 
Actually, I am impressed that the RD seems to = be fairly=20 robust in failure modes - in that it appears to keep functioning (more = or=20 less), until you are back on the ground. 
 
That kind of HP and the G loading is = apparently pushing=20 the RD to its limits.  But, as I am reminded, its only until the = limits=20 of anything are exceeded that you realllllyyyyy know what the limits = are - all=20 else is theoretically {:>).  As we both know, it is generally = the=20 racer who finds those limits by pushing the envelop.
 
So Thanks for that valuable information and = the seat=20 cushions it may have taken to get it.
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

From: David Leonard =
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD1B Failure

Hi Ed,=20
Yes you have missed quite a saga and several failures.  The=20 underlying cause of that one seems to be that the auto flex plate = fatigued and=20 broke, leading to the pin failure (oversized pin).  I replaced = the flex=20 plate with a modified 4130 flywheel that seems much better suited to = the=20 purpose than the flex-plate.  

I then had another failure of the RD-1B when the oiling system = did not=20 seem up to the task during my qualifying run at Reno (clocked at 229 = mph while=20 pulling 2Gs around the course).  Of course, I was probably making = over=20 300 h.p. and pushing the RD-1B beyond its design limits.  Not to = mention=20 that my oil temps were not being measured well and have probably = always been=20 higher than I thought.  I am guessing oil temps were in excess of = 250F=20 when the main plain bearing in the RD-1B seized (after = landing).

I have since had another failure.  This time the sun gear = pin seems=20 to have simply fallen out!  Well, it fell out as much as it could = until=20 the housing would not let it completely go, until the=20 last little piece of the pin sheared off.  This was = amazingly,=20 again, discovered on the ground after a long over-mountainous-terrain = flight=20 to Las Vegas.  

So despite 4 RD-1B failures in 3 different places all in 2011 = (the pin=20 twice, the flex plate, and the main bearing - probably all related to = racing=20 in Reno that year) I have not made any ground toward threatening your = rotary=20 glider time record.  :-)

-- 
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Hey, Dave
 
Glad you didn't further challenge my Glider = record=20 {:>). 
 
 I was thinking that perhaps the stress = of the=20 Reno Races might be a contributing factor to the gear box = problem. =20 Particularly if the shear pin was designed for a N/A 13B.  = Anyhow,=20 hopefully, it is that simple a cause and you find no further=20 damage.
 
Send from Lake of The Ozarks resort - = looking out over=20 the waves and reclining in a lounge chair in the cool morning=20 breeze
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] RD1B Failure

Today had a failure of my RD-1B gear drive.  It = couldn't=20 have happened at a better time, I was just taxiing off the runway at = my home=20 airport.  I just finished flying 200 mi. to Santa Paula to help = Paul=20 with the getting of Mike Wills airplane back into the air.  = Flight home=20 was otherwise unevenful and beautiful.  I didn't bother taking = it=20 apart, but will do so tomorrow.  Feels like I may have broken = the sun=20 gear pin again but will have to wait until tomorrow to be = sure.  The=20 strange thing is that nothing particularly stressed it. =

Sorry there=20 is not cause I can report... a little suspense until tomorrow.

-- =
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
=

=



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