X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [97.64.187.19] (HELO dsmdc-mail-smtp.mcomdc.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5160014 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:14:28 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=97.64.187.19; envelope-from=btilley@mchsi.com Received: from [10.131.202.36] ([166.137.15.54]) by dsmdc-mail-omta-02 with bizsmtp id lsDr1h00519z15i01sDrH9; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:13:52 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=SqwSGYy0 c=1 sm=1 a=SgxLFM8MBZfGvkAmeQWZNA==:17 a=IEd7TEgWBiUA:10 a=BlNAP0SAIawA:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=iUR4pCalAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=HsgfoYxoz0umKjAB6GcA:9 a=7k4DPTZK6l0h0g9tWUYA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=-DL9Ux06FLwA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=aCS5QdqKHdkDNUgwY1AA:9 a=uJAIFK394X1WTd-qFYAA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=cr9gsT_sD58A:10 a=SgxLFM8MBZfGvkAmeQWZNA==:117 References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-05EA1C28-DA46-456A-AB11-8056FC4A8773 Message-Id: <30BF02DC-A921-405C-A074-607EEE61448E@mchsi.com> Cc: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A334) From: Bob Tilley Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:13:49 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft --Apple-Mail-05EA1C28-DA46-456A-AB11-8056FC4A8773 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ben Could you post the specifics of the switch, so we could get one also Bob Tilley Sent from my iPhone On Oct 16, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Ben Schneider wrote: > Fellas, >=20 > After the last round of "cold start switch" debates, I found comfort i= n changing the switched to locking type. The lift and flip type. Now, I will= not argue that not everyone should undergo such delicate surgery on the con= troller, and it is likely that I should not have as well. But in changing to= that type of switch, I allowed myself a bit comfort in not accidentally fli= pping the "push here to crash" button. I am also aware that Tracy is likely= not crazy about people changing his controller, but I decided that for me, t= he risk of flipping the switch accidentally out weighted the risk involved i= n changing the switch. Your risk calculator may likely come to a different s= olution. :) >=20 > Ben >=20 > --- On Sun, 10/16/11, Chris Barber wrote: >=20 > From: Chris Barber > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 6:42 PM >=20 > I think those are too big for the cold start switch.=20 > =20 > Chris > =20 > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of= Ernest Christley [echristley@nc.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:19 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection >=20 > On 10/15/2011 11:25 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote: >>=20 >> Maybe it would be a good idea to put a switch guard on the cold start swi= tch. I put a guard on after my engine started bogging and I saw that I had i= nadvertantly brushed againt the cold start switch while adjusting the mixtur= e. My guard is just a piece of stainless sheet bent into a U shape that make= s it hard it inadvertantly flip it. >> =20 >> Brian Trubee >>=20 > Especially, considering that mpja.com is practically giving them away!! >=20 > http://www.mpja.com/SAFETY-COVER-FULL-TOGGLE-YELLOW/productinfo/16103+SW/ >=20 > (they have several other colors, but yellow would be appropriate.) >=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ed Anderson >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 6:32 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection >>=20 >> My own experience is that when the cold start switch is inappropriately s= elected and the engine is running at medium-hight rpm - is that the engine d= oes not stop immediately, but starts to bog down, sloppy sounding exhaust an= d then eventually dies. But, then I am using 460 cc/min injectors. I even f= ound that I could fly (keep engine running) with the cold start on provided I= put the manual mixture control maximum lean and it was still sloppy soundin= g - if I had 550 cc/min injectors I doubt that it would have kept running. >> =20 >> My best SWAG given that Tracy found no fault and the sudden termination o= f the engine - is either CAS problem or ignition (and it would have to be an= ignition problem that would taken out both sets of spark producing devices)= . If CAS then that could account for the sudden stoppage more so than a mis= placed cold start switch in my opinion, but then distant diagnostics is stil= l an evolving "Art". {:>) >> =20 >> Ed >> =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: David Leonard >> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:32 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection >>=20 >> Man, I hate that cold start switch ;-) >>=20 >> Dave Leonard >>=20 >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tracy wrote: >> Thought the group would like to hear what i found when I Finally had a ch= ance to closely examine Bill's EC2. I was hoping to find a definitive reas= on behind his sudden and complete loss of power on takeoff on his last fligh= t. >>=20 >> On powering it up on the bench I found both A and B controllers Working n= ormally. Bill noted in his report that in the 'Fly The Plane' situation c= alled for in a power failure during takeoff he had not tried switching to co= ntroller B. It does not appear that it would have done any good this time. >>=20 >> None of the parameters were set outside the expected range so no sign of d= ata corruption. In fact the only thing notable about the data downloaded fr= om it was the unusually smooth programming of the MAP table. Most of the ti= me I find units returned for updates with choppy looking data in the table i= ndicating a lack of care or proper methodology in setting it up. A and B co= ntrollers had identical data. >>=20 >> The PCM was also returned with the unit so just in case the control panel= was the cause I substituted it for the bench test panel I normally use. T= hought I saw a problem because the injection pulse width was so large that i= t could well have caused engine flooding. This was caused by the mixture co= ntrol being set fairly high and the cold start switch being in the on positi= on. This does not prove anything because that could easily have happened du= ring removal of the panel from the plane or while packing it for shipping. W= hen the switch and mixture control was returned to normal settings the injec= tion pulse width returned to normal. >>=20 >> Ran the unit on the bench for several hours while heating and subjecting i= t to vibration but nothing else turned up. >>=20 >> Tracy >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> David Leonard >>=20 >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >=20 > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html --Apple-Mail-05EA1C28-DA46-456A-AB11-8056FC4A8773 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Ben

Could you post the specifics of the switch, so we could get one also

Bob Tilley

Sent from my iPhone

On O= ct 16, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Ben Schneider <plumberben@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fellas,

    After the last round of "cold start switch" debates, I= found comfort in changing the switched to locking type. The lift and flip t= ype. Now, I will not argue that not everyone should undergo such delicate su= rgery on the controller, and it is likely that I should not have as well. Bu= t in changing to that type of switch, I allowed myself a bit comfort in not a= ccidentally flipping the "push here to crash" button.  I am also aware t= hat Tracy is likely not crazy about people changing his controller, but I de= cided that for me, the risk of flipping the switch accidentally out weighted= the risk involved in changing the switch. Your risk calculator may likely c= ome to a different solution. :)

Ben

--- O= n Sun, 10/16/11, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:

From: Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection
To: "Rotary motors in aircr= aft" <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 6:42 PM

=20

I think those are too big for the cold start switch. 

 

Chris

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ernest Christley [e= christley@nc.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:19 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

On 10/15/2011 11:25 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote:
Maybe it would be a good idea to put a switch guard on the cold start s= witch. I put a guard on after my engine started bogging and I saw that I had= inadvertantly brushed againt the cold start switch while adjusting the mixt= ure. My guard is just a piece of stainless sheet bent into a U shape that makes it hard it inadvertantly f= lip it.
 
Brian Trubee

Especially, considering that mpja.com is pra= ctically giving them away!!

http://www.mpja.com/SAFETY-COVER-FULL-TOGGLE-YELLOW/productinf= o/16103+SW/

(they have several other colors, but yellow would be appropriate.)


----= -Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 6:32 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

My own experience is that when the cold start swit= ch is inappropriately selected  and the engine is running at medium-hig= ht rpm - is that the engine does not stop immediately, but starts t= o bog down, sloppy sounding exhaust and then eventually dies.  But, then I am using 460 cc/min injectors.  I e= ven found that I could fly (keep engine running) with the cold start on prov= ided I put the manual mixture control maximum lean and it was still sloppy s= ounding - if I had 550 cc/min injectors I doubt that it would have kept running.
 
My best SWAG given that Tracy found no fault and t= he sudden termination of the engine - is either CAS problem or ignition (and= it would have to be an ignition problem that would taken out both sets of s= park producing devices).  If CAS then that could account for the sudden stoppage more so than a misplaced co= ld start switch in my opinion, but then distant diagnostics is still an evol= ving "Art". {:>)
 
Ed
 
 

Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:32 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

Man,  I hate that cold start switch  ;-)

Dave Leonard

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tra= cy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Thought the group would like to hear what i found when I Finally had a chanc= e to closely examine Bill's EC2.   I was hoping to find a definitive re= ason behind his sudden and complete loss of power on takeoff on his last fli= ght.

On powering it up on the bench I found both A and B controllers Working norm= ally.   Bill noted in his report that in the 'Fly The Plane' situation &= nbsp;called for in a power failure during takeoff he had not tried switching= to controller B.  It does not appear that it would have done any good this time.

None of the parameters were set outside the expected range so no sign of dat= a corruption.  In fact the only thing notable about the data downloaded= from it was the unusually smooth programming of the MAP table.  Most o= f the time I find units returned for updates with choppy looking data in the table indicating a lack of care or proper m= ethodology in setting it up.  A and B controllers had identical data.
The PCM was also returned with the unit so just in case the control panel wa= s the cause I substituted it for the bench test panel I normally use.  = Thought I saw a problem because the injection pulse width was so large that= it could well have caused engine flooding.  This was caused by the mixture control being set fairly hig= h and the cold start switch being in the on position.  This does not pr= ove anything because that could easily have happened during removal of the p= anel from the plane or while packing it for shipping.  When the switch and mixture control was returned to nor= mal settings the injection pulse width returned to normal.

Ran the unit on the bench for several hours while heating and subjecting it t= o vibration but nothing else turned up.

Tracy
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http= ://RotaryRoster.net

<= /blockquote>
<EC2 Controller.jpg>
<= /blockquote>
= --Apple-Mail-05EA1C28-DA46-456A-AB11-8056FC4A8773--