X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5159370 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:43:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=bktrub@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.203]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p9H1gOIt018411 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:42:24 -0400 Received: from core-dud005c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dud005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.66.209]) by mtaomg-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id D3107E000089 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:42:23 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CE5A8526EA51D0_15B0_F39F0_webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 34188-STANDARD Received: from 69.84.254.253 by webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com (149.174.18.16) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:42:23 -0400 Message-Id: <8CE5A8526D9A829-15B0-676BE@webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [69.84.254.253] Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:42:23 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:478799008:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cb4e9b87ff1de6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CE5A8526EA51D0_15B0_F39F0_webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Part of the reason that you want the cold start switch functional at all ti= mes is in the rare event of a injector failure. I just use a u shaped switc= h guard. I have inadvertantly activated the "press here for forced landing"= switch in flight.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Oct 16, 2011 5:27 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection It sounds like the cold start switch counts as a "press here to crash" butt= on. Those should be eliminated wherever possible. Some ideas: Have the ECx ignore the switch after the engine has run for a period of tim= e Have the ECx ignore the switch if it's flipped on while the engine is alrea= dy running Have the ECx ignore the switch if the engine temperature is warm Program the cold start functionality directly into the computer and ignore = the switch entirely On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Chris Barber w= rote: On the topic of switch guards, I was very surprised at the extremely scant = availability. I found the .5 inch one mentioned abundantly, however any ot= her types were just seemingly unavailable. i found one I did like but the = only manufacturer stated contact their venders, and then when i told them n= one of their venders had any, and they even verified this, they said they w= ould make me a deal if i ordered only 250 and pay tooling cost....thanks bu= t no. =20 What I wanted was the ability to secure standard .5 inch toggle switches on= during flight since some of my toggles being on is mission critical, like = my primary batt and primary fuel pump. I currently have the previously men= tioned guard installed upside down on my primary batt so as to have the swi= tch activated when the guard is closed. while it works as desired in this = application, it is big and kinda ugly. seems I remember spring bars that w= ould hold a row of toggles in one position back in my days of youth, perhap= s in twins, but this point I have had no joy in finding a more elegant solu= tion for these pesky little toggles that if bumped make my engine quiet. I= do have the old NASA style half circle guards on each side of the toggles,= just not effective enough. =20 Any ideas from the collective? =20 Chris From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net] Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection DETAILS , DETAILS !!......................<:) =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:43 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection Good idea, but afraid that source won't work - that particular guard is des= igned for 1/2" dia standard toggle switches - the one on the EC2/3 control = panel is smaller. =20 Ed =20 =20 From: Ernest Christley=20 Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 7:19 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection On 10/15/2011 11:25 AM, bktrub@aol.com wrote:=20 Maybe it would be a good idea to put a switch guard on the cold start switc= h. I put a guard on after my engine started bogging and I saw that I had in= advertantly brushed againt the cold start switch while adjusting the mixtur= e. My guard is just a piece of stainless sheet bent into a U shape that mak= es it hard it inadvertantly flip it.=20 =20 Brian Trubee Especially, considering that mpja.com is practically giving them away!! http://www.mpja.com/SAFETY-COVER-FULL-TOGGLE-YELLOW/productinfo/16103+SW/ (they have several other colors, but yellow would be appropriate.) -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 6:32 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection My own experience is that when the cold start switch is inappropriately sel= ected and the engine is running at medium-hight rpm - is that the engine d= oes not stop immediately, but starts to bog down, sloppy sounding exhaust a= nd then eventually dies. But, then I am using 460 cc/min injectors. I eve= n found that I could fly (keep engine running) with the cold start on provi= ded I put the manual mixture control maximum lean and it was still sloppy s= ounding - if I had 550 cc/min injectors I doubt that it would have kept run= ning. =20 My best SWAG given that Tracy found no fault and the sudden termination of = the engine - is either CAS problem or ignition (and it would have to be an = ignition problem that would taken out both sets of spark producing devices)= . If CAS then that could account for the sudden stoppage more so than a mi= splaced cold start switch in my opinion, but then distant diagnostics is st= ill an evolving "Art". {:>) =20 Ed =20 =20 From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:32 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection Man, I hate that cold start switch ;-) Dave Leonard On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tracy wrote: Thought the group would like to hear what i found when I Finally had a chan= ce to closely examine Bill's EC2. I was hoping to find a definitive reaso= n behind his sudden and complete loss of power on takeoff on his last fligh= t. On powering it up on the bench I found both A and B controllers Working nor= mally. Bill noted in his report that in the 'Fly The Plane' situation ca= lled for in a power failure during takeoff he had not tried switching to co= ntroller B. It does not appear that it would have done any good this time. None of the parameters were set outside the expected range so no sign of da= ta corruption. In fact the only thing notable about the data downloaded fr= om it was the unusually smooth programming of the MAP table. Most of the t= ime I find units returned for updates with choppy looking data in the table= indicating a lack of care or proper methodology in setting it up. A and B= controllers had identical data. The PCM was also returned with the unit so just in case the control panel w= as the cause I substituted it for the bench test panel I normally use. Th= ought I saw a problem because the injection pulse width was so large that i= t could well have caused engine flooding. This was caused by the mixture c= ontrol being set fairly high and the cold start switch being in the on posi= tion. This does not prove anything because that could easily have happened= during removal of the panel from the plane or while packing it for shippin= g. When the switch and mixture control was returned to normal settings the= injection pulse width returned to normal. Ran the unit on the bench for several hours while heating and subjecting it= to vibration but nothing else turned up. Tracy -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/ http://rotaryroster.net/ ----------MB_8CE5A8526EA51D0_15B0_F39F0_webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Part of the reason that you want the cold start switch functional at a= ll times is in the rare event of a injector failure. I just use a u shaped = switch guard. I have inadvertantly activated the "press here for forced lan= ding" switch in flight.
 
Brian Trubee


= -----Original Message-----
From: William Wilson <fluffysheap@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 16, 2011 5:27 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

It sounds like = the cold start switch counts as a "press here to crash" button.  Those= should be eliminated wherever possible.

Some ideas:
Have the ECx ignore the switch after the engine has run for a period of tim= e
Have the ECx ignore the switch if it's flipped on while the engine is alrea= dy running
Have the ECx ignore the switch if the engine temperature is warm
Program the cold start functionality directly into the computer and ignore = the switch entirely

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasa= ttorney.net> wrote:
On the topic of switch guards, I was very surprised= at the extremely scant availability.  I found the = .5 inch one mentioned abundantly, however any other type= s were just seemingly unavailable.  i found one I d= id like but the only manufacturer stated contact their venders, and then wh= en i told them none of their venders had any, and they e= ven verified this, they said they would make me a deal if i<= /A> ordered only 250 and pay tooling cost....thanks but no.
 
What I wanted was the ability to secure standard .5 inch toggle switches on during flight since some of my toggles b= eing on is mission critical, like my primary batt<= /A> and primary fuel pump.  I currently have the previousl= y mentioned guard installed upside down on my primary batt so as to have the switch activated when the guard is closed. = ; while it works as desired in this application, it is big and kinda ugly.  seems I remember spring bars that would hold a row= of toggles in one position back in my days of youth, perhaps in twins, but= this point I have had no joy in finding a more elegant solution for t= hese pesky little toggles that if bumped make my engine = quiet.  I do have the old NASA style half circle guards on= each side of the toggles, just not effective enough.
 
Any ideas from the collective?
 
Chris
= From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Kelly Troyer [keltro@att.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:51 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

DETAILS , DETAILS !!......................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2= 011 6:43 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bi= ll Eslick's EC2 inspection

Good idea, but afraid that source won't work - that= particular guard is designed for 1/2" dia standard toggle switches - the o= ne on the EC2/3 control panel is smaller.
 
Ed
 
 

Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 7:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

On 10/15/2011 11:25 AM, bk= trub@aol.com wrote:=20
Maybe it would be a good idea to put a switch guard on the cold start = switch. I put a guard on after my engine started bogging and I saw that I h= ad inadvertantly brushed againt the cold start switch while adjusting the m= ixture. My guard is just a piece of stainless sheet bent into a U shape tha= t makes it hard it inadvertantly flip it.
 
Brian Trubee

Especially, considering that mpja.com is practically giving them away!!

http://www.mpja.com/SAFETY-COVER-FULL-TOGGLE-YEL= LOW/productinfo/16103+SW/

(they have several other colors, but yellow would be appropriate.)


= -----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 6:32 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

My own experience is that when the cold start switc= h is inappropriately selected  and the engine is running at medium-hig= ht rpm - is that the engine does not stop immediately, but starts= to bog down, sloppy sounding exhaust and then eventually dies.  But, = then I am using 460 cc/min injectors.  I even found that I could fly (= keep engine running) with the cold start on provided I put the manual mixtu= re control maximum lean and it was still sloppy sounding - if I had 550 cc/= min injectors I doubt that it would have kept running.
 
My best SWAG given that Tracy found no fault and th= e sudden termination of the engine - is either CAS problem or ignition (and= it would have to be an ignition problem that would taken out both sets of = spark producing devices).  If CAS then that could account for the sudd= en stoppage more so than a misplaced cold start switch in my opinion, but t= hen distant diagnostics is still an evolving "Art". {:>)
 
Ed
 
 

Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:32 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bill Eslick's EC2 inspection

Man,  I hate that cold start switch  ;-)

Dave Leonard

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>= wrote:
Thought the group would like to hear what = i found when I Finally had a chance to closely examine Bill's EC2.   I= was hoping to find a definitive reason behind his sudden and complete loss= of power on takeoff on his last flight.

On powering it up on the bench I found both A and B controllers Working nor= mally.   Bill noted in his report that in the 'Fly The Plane' situatio= n  called for in a power failure during takeoff he had not tried switc= hing to controller B.  It does not appear that it would have done any = good this time.

None of the parameters were set outside the expected range so no sign of da= ta corruption.  In fact the only thing notable about the data download= ed from it was the unusually smooth programming of the MAP table.  Mos= t of the time I find units returned for updates with choppy looking data in= the table indicating a lack of care or proper methodology in setting it up= .  A and B controllers had identical data.

The PCM was also returned with the unit so just in case the control panel w= as the cause I substituted it for the bench test panel I normally use. &nbs= p; Thought I saw a problem because the injection pulse width was so large t= hat it could well have caused engine flooding.  This was caused by the= mixture control being set fairly high and the cold start switch being in t= he on position.  This does not prove anything because that could easil= y have happened during removal of the panel from the plane or while packing= it for shipping.  When the switch and mixture control was returned to= normal settings the injection pulse width returned to normal.

Ran the unit on the bench for several hours while heating and subjecting it= to vibration but nothing else turned up.

Tracy
--
Homepage:  http:= //www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list= s/flyrotary/List.html



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://n4vy.rotar= yroster.net/
http://rotaryroster.ne= t/




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