X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5112761 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 10:09:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=clOQl2Kon9ihL0vqe5S6shCOWnQ8eDPHG/StQ1omz74= c=1 sm=0 a=yPbXIWDoWVUA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=W_ZKl9HzAAAA:20 a=433lV0Yneso2WVdT0PYA:9 a=XcuCOsFWql39nxXzPn4A:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=n3ZSPk_74U3sAdfQ:21 a=1Vd7zvufzjcIU8at:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=IfFpJ7f-mBpWzgHK7JAA:9 a=YYqspwneQsuiu43IuvkA:7 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:53347] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id CA/A2-15370-F05326E4; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 14:09:19 +0000 Message-ID: <1C1688D40AA74BA1A52D2B2950D61EEA@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] The good news and the bad news...... Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:09:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01CC6A21.859CC2D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01CC6A21.859CC2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick action and good pre-event decision making,Bill! Very glad you had = no scratches and the aircraft certainly looks like it will fly again - = with a bit of work. Bill, quick suggestion before you take too much apart. I would use the = injection and ignition diagnostic mode of the EC2 to check out each of = the circuits. You still can if you stick the spark plugs back on the = wires and ground them - ditto the injectors into electrical harnesses - = then you should hear clicks from the injectors and get spark from the = plugs. Regarding the chips on your apex seals - run you finger (carefully) = around the lip of the leading spark plug entrance into the combustion = chamber - you may have an edge of metal surrounding the hole that could = be causing the chips on the apex. Just a thought. Sounds like Jason hit the money on the head about the ceramics from the = muffler falling toward then engine with the tail up. But, of course the = big question is why did it quit. Without any sputtering to indicate a = fuel problem -- I would hazard a guess that it is electric or ignition = related. Back about 8 years ago, I had a similar incident on my 2000 ft run way- = engine started surging after lift off with rpm dropping down to 3500 = rpm then back up. Had time for one corrective action (did not work) - = planted the aircraft 300 ft from the end doing around 70 mph -got on the = binders as hard as I could and ended up about 10 ft off the far end of = the runway. Fortunately I the nose gear ( made up for all the "funning" = I got about the 'Whimpy wheel in the front" ) and kept the aircraft from = going up on its nose. Ravine at that end which I certainly did not want = to go into. But, like you I had made that decision long before - that I would rather = go off the far end at 20 mph than get airborne and find myself running = out of opinions and no good ones at that. Ed From: Bill Eslick=20 Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 11:51 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] The good news and the bad news...... I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but = that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. =20 Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home airport = (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished changing the = oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. = Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to everything engine, = but no noise. No more time. At this point flying the machine becomes = THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little bit of = runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land in trees, houses or = the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to capture as much = runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric flap switch long = enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). Pulled probably my best = round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and tail up for weight. I = think my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to try to prevent = going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel skid starts about 200 = feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the wheel pants, cowling = and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped nose down just off the = end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed the slider canopy = UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not even scared by the = whole event. Interesting. Never even considered trying to turn around. = Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid off. =20 More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable incident. = Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in a = Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles = away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had = injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would = turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on inside. First = try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More fooling with it and = it gradually came looser and would turn. Really looked like something = came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a = compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was 2-2-2. More proof = that something had come loose. With that evidence, the insurance = company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. What I found = was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were still fine. = Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. Went = through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason Hutchison (my = other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV was standing = on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the = manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was grinding. Crap. = Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount. = All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing). = I spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken = wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it = into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors test. If that = checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. I don't know = what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody reached over and = turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence. = I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. I suspect not, = due to the silence and the fact that one blade is untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on with Rotor = 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex = seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot of = carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for if/when my = RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. The = rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have = no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and parts = are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine tent = at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by the = first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might have gone = wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am just = looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel pumps = were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's), = Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my = whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01CC6A21.859CC2D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quick action and good pre-event decision=20 making,Bill!  Very glad you had no scratches and the aircraft = certainly=20 looks like it will fly again - with a bit of work.
 
Bill, quick suggestion before you take too much=20 apart.  I would use the injection and ignition diagnostic mode of = the EC2=20 to check out each of the circuits.  You still can if you stick the = spark=20 plugs back on the wires and ground them - ditto the injectors into = electrical=20 harnesses - then you should hear clicks from the injectors and get spark = from=20 the plugs.
 
Regarding the chips on = your apex=20 seals - run you finger (carefully) around the lip of the leading spark = plug=20 entrance into the combustion chamber - you may have an edge of metal = surrounding=20 the hole that could be causing the chips on the apex.  Just a=20 thought.
 
Sounds like Jason hit the money on the head = about the=20 ceramics from the muffler falling toward then engine with the tail = up. =20 But, of course the big question is why did it quit.  Without any = sputtering=20 to indicate a fuel problem -- I would hazard a guess that it is electric = or=20 ignition related.
 
 
Back about 8 years ago, I had a similar incident = on my=20 2000 ft run way- engine started surging after lift off  with rpm = dropping=20 down to 3500 rpm then back up.  Had time for one corrective action = (did not=20 work) - planted the aircraft 300 ft from the end doing around 70 mph = -got on the=20 binders as hard as I could and ended up about 10 ft off the far end of = the=20 runway.  Fortunately I the nose gear ( made up for all = the=20 "funning" I got about the 'Whimpy wheel in the front" ) and kept the = aircraft=20 from going up on its nose.  Ravine at that end which I certainly = did not=20 want to go into.
 
But, like you I had made that decision long = before - that=20 I would rather go off the far end at 20 mph than get airborne and find = myself=20 running out of opinions and no good ones at that.
 
 
 
 
Ed

From: Bill Eslick
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 11:51 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] The good news and the bad=20 news......

I have=20 been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but that = might never=20 happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No injuries.  =

Bad news:  I have some work to do.

Photos at: =20 http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101

On August 16th at 10 = AM, I lined=20 up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot = headwind.  I=20 had just finished changing the oil and filter and plugs.  Run-up = was fine,=20 so off I went.  Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred = feet in=20 the air, it suddenly and without any warning became very = silent.

Hit the=20 big switch which puts direct battery power to everything engine, but no=20 noise.  No more time.  At this point flying the machine = becomes THE=20 priority.  Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little bit of = runway=20 under the nose!  I had fully expected to land in trees, houses or = the=20 river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to capture as much = runway as=20 possible while (somehow) holding the electric flap switch long enough to = get=20 full flaps (noticed this later).  Pulled probably my best round-out = ever -=20 no bounce.  Brakes to max and tail up for weight.  I think my=20 sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to try to prevent going = through the=20 fence and down the hill.  Wheel skid starts about 200 feet from the = stopping point.  Skid marks from the wheel pants, cowling and prop = run=20 about the last 50 feet.  It stopped nose down just off the = end.  The=20 tail was still over pavement.  Pushed the slider canopy UPHILL, = stepped out=20 and down.  Noticed that I was not even scared by the whole = event. =20 Interesting.  Never even considered trying to turn around. =20 Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid off. 

More = good=20 news.  No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable incident.  = Didn't=20 even bend the gear legs.  Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger = about=20 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles away.  The = police and=20 rescue types were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not = interested in=20 my minor mishap.

As for the engine.  When we got it back to = the=20 hangar, the prop would turn only haltingly.  You could feel = grinding going=20 on inside.  First try at turning had it come up hard and = stop.  More=20 fooling with it and it gradually came looser and would turn.  = Really looked=20 like something came loose in there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor = and did=20 a compression test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was = 2-2-2. =20 More proof that something had come loose.  With that evidence, the=20 insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection.  = What I=20 found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk.  All the seals were = still=20 fine.  Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came = from. =20 Went through every inch of the induction system.  Finally Jason = Hutchison=20 (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code.  While the RV was = standing=20 on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the = manifold=20 and in the exhaust port.  That is what was grinding.  = Crap.  Now=20 the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount.  = All the=20 wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing).  I = spent=20 the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, but = found=20 none.  When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his = plane and=20 we'll do the plugs and injectors test.  If that checks out, Tracy, = it is=20 coming to you for a good look.  I don't know what else to = check.  The=20 engine quit just like somebody reached over and turned off the = ignition. =20 No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence.  I honestly do not = know if the=20 prop was turning or not.  I suspect not, due to the silence and the = fact=20 that one blade is untouched.

As you can see from the photos, = there was=20 something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is apparent down stream from = the=20 plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to chip in the = center.  There=20 is quite a lot of carbon also on the rotors after 170 = hours.

Going=20 forward, I have decided to look at resale value for if/when my RV-12 = days=20 arrive.  This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it.  The rotary = has=20 given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, = but this=20 is an opportunity to make some changes, and parts are already on the = way. =20 I will still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever = else=20 gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying by the first of next=20 year....

I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what = might have=20 gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am = just=20 looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point.  Both fuel = pumps were=20 on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked = fine.

Guess it's=20 obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's),  Felix = 68/72 and=20 Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 14-year = stash)=20 available!  And priced to sell!

Bill=20 Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A
750=20 Hours



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