X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5110860 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:39:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.96; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.10]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p81JcJBC016364 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 15:38:21 -0400 Received: from core-ddc003c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddc003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.137]) by mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 6AF5AE0000A4 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 15:38:20 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Pump Suck Lock?: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CE36F5D69AEDA9_198_6E1CE_webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 34078-STANDARD Received: from 198.238.213.154 by webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com (64.12.101.228) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:38:20 -0400 Message-Id: <8CE36F5D68F06C4-198-2838E@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [198.238.213.154] Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 15:38:20 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:467487072:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290a4e5fdf2c764c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CE36F5D69AEDA9_198_6E1CE_webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm running two of Tracy's original fuel pump offerings, in parallel in my = RV-8. I have finger strainers in the tanks, then thru Van's fuel selector v= alve, forward to the pumps. The pumps are mounted to the floor next to the = left rudder pedal. Each pump discharges thru a vertical mounted check valve= on the back of the firewall, then joins to the bulkhead fitting and on to = a High pressure filter and on to the fuel injectors, in series. The stock M= azda pressure regulator is the last point, then to the fuel return selector= valve and to the tank. All -6 tube and hose. I didn't like the original Van's fuel tank pick ups, so I used John Ammter'= s design, which is a finger strainer in a doubler plate at the aft lower co= rner of the inboard fuel tank rib. I don't think I can get much better, unless I put a hatch in the top of the= tank and use an 'In Tank' fuel pump. Then I'll lose some redundancy and ne= ed to change the operating proceedure...I'll have to think about that one..= .. My secondary injectors are mounted somewhat like the Cozygrrls' lower manif= old, but outboard instead of inboard of the tubes. This is above the exhaus= t manifold, so I have cooling air directed in from the left cowl inlet. It = feels pretty warm in there after a test run. -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Sep 1, 2011 5:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Pump Suck Lock?: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Ma= nifold I don't see any problem with the term "vapor lock" itself - because when th= e pressure on the pump inlet gets low enough, that is exactly what happens = - sufficient fuel enters a gaseous state to interfere with the pumping of l= iquid fuel to the high pressure side. So the term is not that bad a descri= ption so long as we all realize it happens on the Low pressure (inlet) sid= e of the pump and NOT the high pressure side. =20 =20 My experience with "vapor lock" showed that by turning my boost pump on (ad= ding pressure to the "suction " side of the EFI high pressure pump) elimina= ted the condition - which again indicates the problem is low pressure on th= e inlet side of the EFI pump. If there were liquid there, it would be pump= ed, so must be vapor - so the pump is "vapor locked" but, - not on the high= pressure side. =20 =20 Perhaps we should refer to a more technical accurate descriptive name , how= about "Pump Suck Lock" {:>) - just kidding. =20 =20 Ed=20 =20 Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Charlie England=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold Data point: One of the big aviation engine/fuel injection suppliers install= s -4 lines everywhere in front of the firewall up to the 'spider', on all 4= cyl Lycs (up to 200+ hp) and if memory serves, even on the 6cyl engines (2= 30+ hp). The individual lines from the 'spider' to the cylinders are so sma= ll you'd be hard pressed to get safety wire through them. This is on a Bend= ix style injection system using a diaphragm type fuel pump and no return li= ne after the pump. These systems run at between 15 & 30 psi. Logic is that = minimum diameter line minimizes quantity of fuel that can boil on the engin= e side of the firewall.=20 With minimum diameter lines, as long as the pump can provide pressure it wo= n't take long to clear any vapor as soon as cranking begins, or you hit Tra= cy's 'cold start' button a couple of times. (Vapor in the combustion chambe= r is a good thing anyway, right?) :-) As Al Wick pointed out, the only place vapor should be a problem is at the = inlet to the pump itself. Charlie On 08/31/2011 07:35 AM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20 Interesting Chad. The people flying Subes and using autogas were also guessing that altitude = was a factor in vaporlock. We won't be using autogas due to variable formul= ation eating up epoxy tanks. We were thinking that if the regulator was the last item in the chain and t= hat the rails were hooked up serially that it would minimize vaporlock and = also a few seconds of the pump running before a hot restart would cool and = clear the rail. =20 Chrissi & Randi www.CozyGirrrl.com CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop =20 In a message dated 8/30/2011 11:36:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, crobinson= @medialantern.com writes: I recently researched EFI regulation a bit and found something interesting.= Many modern (post-1995) vehicles have "returnless" EDI systems where the r= egulator is in or near the tank, not the engine compartment. It turns out this isn't for complexity reasons, though it does save a bit. = It's for emissions. The heating of the fuel in the engine compartment trans= fers heat back to the tank. The tank's emissions do count even though they'= re not huge. It's also one less part, hose, and set of fittings to fail- a= nd get warranty calls on. To deal with vapor lock they just crank up the pressure to 65 or more psi. = Very effective. Not at all saying we should do the same, but the purpose is interesting, no= ? As well as the vapor lock" solution"... Regards, Chad ----------MB_8CE36F5D69AEDA9_198_6E1CE_webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I'm running two of Tracy's original fuel pump offerings, in parallel i= n my RV-8. I have finger strainers in the tanks, then thru Van's fuel selec= tor valve, forward to the pumps. The pumps are mounted to the floor next to= the left rudder pedal. Each pump discharges thru a vertical mounted check = valve on the back of the firewall, then joins to the bulkhead fitting and o= n to a High pressure filter and on to the fuel injectors, in series. T= he stock Mazda pressure regulator is the last point, then to the fuel retur= n selector valve and to the tank. All -6 tube and hose.
I didn't like the original Van's fuel tank pick ups, so I used John Am= mter's design, which is a finger strainer in a doubler plate at the aft low= er corner of the inboard fuel tank rib.
I don't think I can get much better, unless I put a hatch in the top o= f the tank and use an 'In Tank' fuel pump. Then I'll lose some redundancy a= nd need to change the operating proceedure...I'll have to think about that = one....
My secondary injectors are mounted somewhat like the Cozygrrls' lower = manifold, but outboard instead of inboard of the tubes. This is above the e= xhaust manifold, so I have cooling air directed in from the left cowl = inlet. It feels pretty warm in there after a test run.



= -----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 1, 2011 5:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Pump Suck Lock?: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Ma= nifold

I don't see any problem with the term "vapor lock" = itself - because when the pressure on the pump inlet gets low enough, that = is exactly what happens - sufficient fuel enters a gaseous state = to interfere with the pumping of liquid fuel to the high pressure side.&nbs= p; So the term is not that bad a description so long as we all realize it h= appens on the Low pressure (inlet)  side of the pump and NOT the high = pressure side. 
 
My experience with "vapor lock" showed that by turn= ing my boost pump on (adding pressure to the "suction " side of the EFI hig= h pressure pump) eliminated the condition - which again indicates the probl= em is low pressure on the inlet side of the EFI pump.  If there w= ere liquid there, it would be pumped, so must be vapor - so the pump is "va= por locked" but, - not on the high pressure side.   <= /div>
 
Perhaps we should refer to a more technical accurat= e descriptive name , how about  "Pump Suck Lock" {:>) - just kidding.
 
 
Ed 
 
 Edward L. Anderson<= br> Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersone= e.com
http://www.eicomman= der.com
 
 
 
 

 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:07 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold

Data point: One of the big aviation engine/fuel injection suppliers install= s -4 lines everywhere in front of the firewall up to the 'spider', on all 4= cyl Lycs (up to 200+ hp) and if memory serves, even on the 6cyl engines (2= 30+ hp). The individual lines from the 'spider' to the cylinders are so sma= ll you'd be hard pressed to get safety wire through them. This is on a Bend= ix style injection system using a diaphragm type fuel pump and no return li= ne after the pump. These systems run at between 15 & 30 psi. Logic is t= hat minimum diameter line minimizes quantity of fuel that can boil on the e= ngine side of the firewall.

With minimum diameter lines, as long as the pump can provide pressure it wo= n't take long to clear any vapor as soon as cranking begins, or you hit Tra= cy's 'cold start' button a couple of times. (Vapor in the combustion chambe= r is a good thing anyway, right?) :-)

As Al Wick pointed out, the only place vapor should be a problem is at the = inlet to the pump itself.

Charlie

On 08/31/2011 07:35 AM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20
Interesting Chad.
The people flying Subes and using autogas were also guessing that alti= tude was a factor in vaporlock. We won't be using autogas due to variable f= ormulation eating up epoxy tanks.
We were thinking that if the regulator was the last item in the chain = and that the rails were hooked up serially that it would minimize vaporlock= and also a few seconds of the pump running before a hot restart would cool= and clear the rail.
 
Chrissi & Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
 
I recently researched EFI regulation a bit and found something interes= ting. Many modern (post-1995) vehicles have "returnless" EDI systems where = the regulator is in or near the tank, not the engine compartment.
It turns out this isn't for complexity reasons, though it does save a = bit. It's for emissions. The heating of the fuel in the engine compartment = transfers heat back to the tank. The tank's emissions do count even though = they're not huge. It's also one less part, hose, and set of fittings to fai= l-  and get warranty calls on.
To deal with vapor lock they just crank up the pressure to 65 or more = psi. Very effective.
Not at all saying we should do the same, but the purpose is interestin= g, no? As well as the vapor lock" solution"...
Regards,
Chad

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