X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5109803 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:18:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC6823.A8B27134" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:19:24 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F333E094@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold thread-index: AcxoFJ2H6LGB9pFqSkuVK+h3DGaWqgAB7/+w References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6823.A8B27134 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CC6823.A8B27134" ------_=_NextPart_002_01CC6823.A8B27134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, =20 I have no filters on the inlet side of the pumps. Early on I had one filter at the outlet of each tank but they were removed after a few flight hours. They were the same GM style filters that may use on the high pressure side of our fuel systems. Never any indication of fuel flow problems but no pressure drop data was available from the manufacture. I was experiencing fuel pressure not tracking manifold pressure on a one to one basis. It would go higher under boost but sometimes not come down as expected. I removed the filters at the suggestion of Aeromotive tech support. I still have the condition and need to try a different regulator. I have one large filter at the firewall and it always looks clean. I'm confident my power failure was not fuel "filter" related and I don't think it was vapor lock. But I'm also not 100% sure it was the Hushpower muffler. I moved throttle several time through its entire range with no improvements. Sitting on the taxiway after landing the engine would not make power. A few minutes later when restarted it made full power. I did call Ed Klepis the day after the FAA inspected the plane and suggested they check the muffler. No feedback so far. =20 Just for fun play the attached file in Google Earth. My poor piloting skill are evident as I let a stiff wind blow me off center line just after rotation. However tracking the centerline on landing was not an issue even with the tail wind. As Ed says "emergency's have a way of focusing your mind." =20 Bobby =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 12:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold =20 Have to agree with Al W. on this one. I have never seen smoking gun evidence that vapor lock occurs in the fuel rails. I have seen MANY smoking guns pointing at problems in the pump inlet circuit. =20 =20 That pump inlet filter on Bobby Hugh's installation raised a big red flag for me as a possible cause of his power failure. It looks like the identical filter that caused the same problem on my 20B. Ed Klepis talked with me about the problem but unfortunately Bobby is not communicating about it AFAIK. =20 =20 BTW, Here is one piece of advice when you experience a power loss at high throttle. All engine systems are under maximum stress at full power and it is often the case that if you ask a bit less of them, they might work better. I understand the urge to firewall the throttle when power sags at takeoff but TRY reducing throttle momentarily to see if you get better engine performance. This has saved me from at least three aircraft accidents. When that clogged inlet filter caused a power sag in the RV-8, backing off on the throttle lowered the fuel demand of the engine and the fuel pressure recovered enough to let the engine run normally at reduced throttle. Same thing applies to other situations. When my Rotax powered Twinstar started loosing power on climb out I reduced throttle and the engine recovered. Piston seizure was the problem but reducing throttle let the piston cool a bit and total seizure was avoided. I replaced rings & scuffed pistons after nursing it 80 miles to home. =20 Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 31, 2011, at 9:50 AM, "Al Wick" wrote: =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold =20 HOWEVER..... if there is not a method to bleed down the rail the risk of vapor lock exists, as the rail heats, the fuel boils, and the vapor gets trapped in the line. =09 If you DO put the regulator upstream of the rail, its imperative to be able to be able to flow fuel past the injectors and to a return line to avoid any possibility of vapor lock. The easiest way is simply to put the regulator downstream of the rail and injectors, but again.. this arrangement is more about preventing vapor lock, not ensuring adequate pressure.=20 =09 Chris and I were forced into the upstream approach by the Mistral fuel rail configuration, and I didn't want to mess with drilling out the pinhole and then running a regulator downstream - Mistral was hard enough to get the intake from, and we didn't expect getting a replacement part if we had an OOOPS would have been easy. As others have now found out, Mistral isn't selling parts.=20 =09 So... anyways.. just wanted to clarify previous post. 1) can regulate pressure anywhere in the fuel circuit between pumps and injectors. 2) Must provide for mechanism to flow fuel past injectors to prevent vapor lock. =09 Dave =09 On 8/30/2011 11:06 PM, Dave wrote:=20 No... at the flows and pressures we are using (and barring any major obstructions between the regulator and the injectors), the regulator can be anywhere in the circuit and adequately regulate the pressure. =09 On Chris Barber's install, I purchased the Mistral intake for use on his engine. The fuel rail was a dead end tube with a pinhole on the end. Presumably the pinhole was to prevent vapor lock in the fuel rail. The regulator HAD to be upstream of the injectors when using the intake. We had stable fuel pressures and no problems getting fuel to the engine.=20 =09 We had return lines from the pinhole end of the rail, as well as from the pressure regulator, that fed back to the sump tank. Since there were not check valves running from the wings to the sump, there was no chance of pressurizing the sump.=20 =09 Dave =09 On 8/30/2011 10:30 PM, =20 CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20 Ed, I must have mispoke to give this impression, I thought the pressure reg HAD TO be last in line to maintain pressure in the fuel rail? =20 =20 Chrissi & Randi www.CozyGirrrl.com CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop =20 In a message dated 8/30/2011 10:13:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: If the pressure regulator is place before the injectors then there is less fresh fuel flowing through the rails.=20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_002_01CC6823.A8B27134 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tracy,

 

I have no filters on the inlet side = of the pumps. Early on I had one filter at the outlet of each tank but they = were removed after a few flight hours. They were the same GM style filters = that may use on the high pressure side of our fuel systems. Never any indication = of fuel flow problems but no pressure drop data was available from the = manufacture. I was experiencing fuel pressure not tracking manifold pressure on a one = to one basis. It would go higher under boost but sometimes not come down as = expected. I removed the filters at the suggestion of Aeromotive tech support. I = still have the condition and need to try a different regulator. I have one large = filter at the firewall and it always looks clean.  I’m confident my = power failure was not fuel “filter” related and I don’t think it was vapor = lock.   But I’m also not 100% sure it was the Hushpower muffler. I moved throttle several time = through its entire range with no improvements. Sitting on the taxiway after landing = the engine would not make power. A few minutes later when restarted it made = full power. I did call Ed Klepis the day after the FAA inspected the plane = and suggested they check the muffler. No feedback so far.

 

Just for fun play the attached file = in Google Earth. My poor piloting skill are evident as I let a stiff wind = blow me off center line just after rotation. However tracking the centerline on = landing was not an issue even with the tail wind. As Ed says = “emergency’s have a way of focusing your mind.”

 

Bobby

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy
Sent: Wednesday, August = 31, 2011 12:29 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = CG Products Intake Manifold

 

Have to agree with Al W. on this one.   I have never seen = smoking gun evidence that vapor lock occurs in the fuel rails.   I have = seen MANY smoking guns pointing at problems in the pump inlet circuit. =  

 

That pump inlet filter on Bobby Hugh's installation raised a big = red flag for me as a possible cause of his power failure.  It looks = like the identical filter that caused the same problem on my 20B.   Ed = Klepis talked with me about the problem but unfortunately Bobby is not = communicating about it AFAIK.  

 

BTW,   Here is one piece of advice when you experience a = power loss at high throttle.  All engine systems are under maximum stress = at full power and it is often the case that if you ask a bit less of them, = they might work better.   I understand the urge to firewall the throttle = when power sags at takeoff but TRY reducing throttle momentarily to see if = you get better engine performance.  This has saved me from at least three = aircraft accidents.   When that clogged inlet filter caused a power sag in = the RV-8, backing off on the throttle lowered the fuel demand of the engine = and the fuel pressure recovered enough to let the engine run normally at reduced throttle.   Same thing applies to other situations.   When my = Rotax powered Twinstar started loosing power on climb out I reduced throttle = and the engine recovered.   Piston seizure was the problem but reducing = throttle let the piston cool a bit and total seizure was avoided.   I = replaced rings & scuffed pistons after nursing it 80 miles to = home.

 

Tracy



Sent from my iPad


On Aug 31, 2011, at 9:50 AM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:

<if there is not a method to bleed down the rail the risk of = vapor lock exists

 

So you are saying every car built since 1990 has this = "vapor lock" problem? We would see thousands of cars unable to start at = every desert truck stop. This concern for fuel rail is a myth. =

 

Vapor lock is not a myth. It occurs at the fuel pump inlet. Very important to minimize pressure drop there. You can actually measure how = far your design is from vapor lock. You don't have to = guess.

 

The bleed helps if you totally blew the plumbing from tank = to fuel pump. But much better to fix that plumbing error. =  

 

 

-al wick

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Dave

Sent: = Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:14 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: CG Products Intake Manifold

 

HOWEVER..... if there is not a method to bleed down the rail the = risk of vapor lock exists, as the rail heats, the fuel boils, and the vapor = gets trapped in the line.

If you DO put the regulator upstream of the rail, its imperative to be = able to be able to flow fuel past the injectors and to a return line to avoid = any possibility of vapor lock. The easiest way is simply to put the = regulator downstream of the rail and injectors, but again.. this arrangement is = more about preventing vapor lock, not ensuring adequate pressure.

Chris and I were forced into the upstream approach by the Mistral fuel = rail configuration, and I didn't want to mess with drilling out the pinhole = and then running a regulator downstream - Mistral was hard enough to get the = intake from, and we didn't expect getting a replacement part if we had an OOOPS = would have been easy. As others have now found out, Mistral isn't selling = parts.

So... anyways.. just wanted to clarify previous post.  1) can = regulate pressure anywhere in the fuel circuit between pumps and injectors. 2) = Must provide for mechanism to flow fuel past injectors to prevent vapor = lock.

Dave

On 8/30/2011 11:06 PM, Dave wrote:

No... at the flows and pressures we are using (and barring any = major obstructions between the regulator and the injectors), the regulator can = be anywhere in the circuit and adequately regulate the pressure.

On Chris Barber's install, I purchased the Mistral intake for use on his engine. The fuel rail was a dead end tube with a pinhole on the end. = Presumably the pinhole was to prevent vapor lock in the fuel rail. The regulator = HAD to be upstream of the injectors when using the intake. We had stable fuel = pressures and no problems getting fuel to the engine.

We had return lines from the pinhole end of the rail, as well as from = the pressure regulator, that fed back to the sump tank. Since there were not = check valves running from the wings to the sump, there was no chance of = pressurizing the sump.

Dave

On 8/30/2011 10:30 PM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:

Ed, I must have = mispoke to give this impression, I thought the pressure reg HAD TO be last in = line to maintain pressure in the fuel rail?

 

=

 

=

Chrissi & Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop

 

=

In a message dated 8/30/2011 = 10:13:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:

  If the pressure regulator = is place before the injectors then there is less fresh fuel flowing through the rails. 

 

 

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