X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost06.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.106] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5108488 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:59:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.106; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-74-235-253-170.mco.bellsouth.net[74.235.253.170]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc06) with SMTP id <20110830155847H0600a9vf2e>; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:58:48 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [74.235.253.170] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:01:11 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01CC670C.832DB120" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcxmsNRcwS+Jc8TpSAyleSkN7b1mbgAfH1Ag X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01CC670C.832DB120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, I am using http://www.navzilla.com/mogas.php however, you have to take it with a grain of salt and call first. For example, I called Bob Hope airport at Burbank and found that although they list Mogas, it is only available for ground equipment and they will not pump it into airplanes. Airports for Texas. 1E7 BUFFALO AMARILLO TX 806-622-1374 100LL MOGAS ELA EAGLE LAKE EAGLE LAKE TX 979-234-2640 100LL A MOGAS T27 HORIZON EL PASO TX 915-852-3554 100LL A MOGAS 7T7 SKYWEST INC MIDLAND TX 432-570-5983 100LL MOGAS RFG ROOKE FIELD REFUGIO TX 361-526-4141 100LL MOGAS 2F1 SHAMROCK MUNI SHAMROCK TX 806-256-3281 100LL MOGAS F51 WINNSBORO MUNI WINNSBORO TX 903-342-3654 100LL MOGAS B2 _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 9:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Bill, What is your source for airports selling mogas? I would sure like to find something in my neck of the woods (Central Texas). Mark S. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: BUR BOB HOPE BURBANK CA 818-840-8840 100LL A MOGAS C39 FOLSOM LAKE FOLSOM CA 916-988-0205 MOGAS E20 LAKE BERRYESSA NAPA CA 707-966-2111 MOGAS O06 LAKE OROVILLE LANDING AREA OROVILLE CA 916-538-2200 MOGAS H77 BRIDGE BAY RESORT REDDING CA 916-275-3021 MOGAS 0Q9 SONOMA SKYPARK SONOMA CA 707-996-2100 100LL MOGAS David, I don't know how close to you any of these airports are, but they are supposed to have Mogas and are in California. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 4:55 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? Thanks Mark, There is another nail in that coffin. I usually use 91 MOGAS when at home, but there is no where to get MOGAS at airports here in the west. Dave Leonard On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: David, My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to 100LL. I called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he said that leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another sensor). I mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not to use with leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so what". So, save your money if you're running 100LL. Mark S. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard wrote: Thanks Bobby, What number are you looking for for mixture? On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote: David, Where are you injecting the water? I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the intercooler. Here are the few facts I think I know about water injections. 1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix. 2. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP. Those are contradictory points. For, what is it that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation. I think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling. 1. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block = more cooling. 2. Injection at the block = better detonation margin. what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin? 1. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol. Not in Southern California. They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol). I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!" Also a good wideband is very useful. http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-s m-afr-combo-black It's my most used instrument. I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked. But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL. Have you had any problems with 100LL? -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI? Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think? Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI. Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock. The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine. My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right. If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system. But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but close enough) the engine does not bog. So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little. But how much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). So here are my questions: Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any sense? Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno) How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up. Can't give a number because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I have not heard. I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor. But without a knock sensor am really in the blind. Thoughts? -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01CC670C.832DB120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

I am using =

 

http://www.navzilla.com/mogas.= php

 

however, you have to take it with a = grain of salt and call first.  For example, I called Bob Hope airport at = Burbank and = found that although they list Mogas, it is only available for ground equipment and = they will not pump it into airplanes.

 

Airports for Texas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1E7

BUFFALO=

AMARILLO=

TX

806-622-1374

100LL MOGAS

ELA

EAGLE LAKE=

EAGLE LAKE=

TX

979-234-2640

100LL A MOGAS

T27

HORIZON

EL = PASO=

TX

915-852-3554

100LL A MOGAS

7T7

SKYWEST INC

MIDLAND=

TX

432-570-5983

100LL MOGAS

RFG

ROOKE FIELD

REFUGIO

TX

361-526-4141

100LL MOGAS

2F1

SHAMROCK MUNI

SHAMROCK

TX

806-256-3281

100LL MOGAS

F51

WINNSBORO MUNI

WINNSBORO

TX

903-342-3654

100LL MOGAS

 

B2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, August 29, = 2011 9:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = How to tune with ADI?

 

Bill, 

 

What is your source for airports selling mogas?  I would = sure like to find something in my neck of the woods (Central Texas).

 

Mark = S.

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

BUR

BOB HOPE

BURBANK

CA

818-840-8840

100LL A MOGAS

C39

FOLSOM LAKE

FOLSOM=

CA

916-988-0205

MOGAS<= /o:p>

E20

LAKE BERRYESSA

NAPA

CA

707-966-2111

MOGAS<= /o:p>

O06

LAKE OROVILLE LANDING AREA

OROVILLE

CA

916-538-2200

MOGAS<= /o:p>

H77

BRIDGE BAY RESORT

REDDING

CA

916-275-3021

MOGAS<= /o:p>

0Q9

SONOMA SKYPARK

SONOMA

CA

707-996-2100

100LL MOGAS

 

 

David,

 

I don’t know how close to you any of these airports = are, but they are supposed to have Mogas and are in California.<= /p>

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David = Leonard
Sent: Monday, August 29, = 2011 4:55 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = How to tune with ADI?

 

Thanks Mark, 

There is another nail in that coffin.  I usually use 91 MOGAS when = at home, but there is no where to get MOGAS at airports here in the = west.

Dave Leonard

On = Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> = wrote:

David, 

 

My = wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to 100LL.  I called = the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he said that leaded = gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another sensor).  I = mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not to use with leaded = fuel and he (basically) said, "so what".  So, save your money if = you're running 100LL. 

 

Mark = S. 

 

On = Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:

Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for for = mixture?

On = Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net> = wrote:

David,

 

Where are you injecting the water? =


I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after = the intercooler.
 

=

Here are the few facts I = think I know about water injections.

  1. Water is better for = detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.
  2. Alcohol mixture allows = timing advance and more HP.

Those = are contradictory points.  For, what is it that allows more timing = advance other than prevention of detonation.  I think you mean that water = is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in fuel octane as well as cooling. =

=
  1. Injection in the = intake some distance before the engine block =3D more = cooling.
  2. Injection at the block = =3D better detonation margin.

what = is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation = Margin?

  1. Windshield wiper fluid = is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually about 40% = alcohol.

Not = in Southern California.  They sell blue stuff = but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).  I even found one, = a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big = letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!" =

 

 

Also a good wideband is very useful. http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideb= and-o2-52mm-display-sm-afr-combo-black It’s my most used instrument.

 

I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked.  But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn = out with 100LL.  Have you had any problems with = 100LL?

 

-- =
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David = Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 28, = 2011 10:24 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] How to tune = with ADI?

 

Ok,  So I have the new ADI system installed and working....  I = think?

 

Some = of you smart racing guys probably have experience with = ADI.

 

Most = of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that = have computers and knock sensors.  All they do is turn the system on and = the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.  = The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less = than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.  My system is a = fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.  = If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after = about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.  But when I uses a 50/50 = mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but = close enough) the engine does not bog.

 

So = assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to = lean to better power and advance the timing a little.  But how much?  = For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.  = When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of = roughness to the engine.  I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.  For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where = I normally limit it (890 deg C).  But if I then add 5 more inches of = MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense = that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that...  We = are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne) and = climbing at 500 fpm). 

 

So = here are my questions:

Is = EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any = sense?

Since = Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean further = toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo...  I = need to remember to bring the spare one to Reno)

How = much advance do you think i can add?  I was previously ruining 5 deg = ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.  Can't give a number because the = EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.  How much, I have not = heard.  I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.  But = without a knock sensor am really in the blind.

 

Thoughts? 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 

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