X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com ([209.85.161.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5107705 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:04:52 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.161.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so4699670fxd.25 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:04:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=rs4QRngplakYu9JvvIp78oIcKUdI0ZQIYvB4yS/lDow=; b=Oqqx1rEE+5Brhn9bbLUWSDYPHqDFjTl9kfraZKuwQNzPYWmLRmhgKgG3FE5mppkKzz 0RBeNbYZlhUTyvYolX+KpWU+oDM9aD9IjUXvmPoN9NISUCakhZOkwJk206/sf4/sAky/ TmqTo+/wRZr5s8s3il4JmWvg4Zyt0wzo1yzGg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.15.145 with SMTP id k17mr7934994faa.132.1314666254060; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.74.129 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:04:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:04:13 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517448418124d3204abae9764 --001517448418124d3204abae9764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, What is your source for airports selling mogas? I would sure like to find something in my neck of the woods (Central Texas). Mark S. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Bill Bradburry w= rote: > ** ** ** ** ** ** > > BUR **** > > BOB HOPE**** > > ****BURBANK******** > > CA**** > > 818-840-8840**** > > 100LL A MOGAS**** > > C39 **** > > FOLSOM **LAKE****** > > FOLSOM**** > > CA**** > > 916-988-0205**** > > MOGAS**** > > E20 **** > > ****LAKE** **BERRYESSA******** > > ****NAPA******** > > CA**** > > 707-966-2111**** > > MOGAS**** > > O06 **** > > ****LAKE** **OROVILLE**** LANDING AREA**** > > OROVILLE**** > > CA**** > > 916-538-2200**** > > MOGAS**** > > H77 **** > > BRIDGE BAY RESORT**** > > ****REDDING******** > > CA**** > > 916-275-3021**** > > MOGAS**** > > 0Q9 **** > > ****SONOMA**** SKYPARK**** > > ****SONOMA******** > > CA**** > > 707-996-2100**** > > 100LL MOGAS**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > David,**** > > ** ** > > I don=92t know how close to you any of these airports are, but they are > supposed to have Mogas and are in ****California****.**** > > ** ** > > Bill B**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Monday, August 29, 2011 4:55 PM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: How to tune with ADI?**** > > ** ** > > Thanks Mark, > > There is another nail in that coffin. I usually use 91 MOGAS when at hom= e, > but there is no where to get MOGAS at airports here in the west. > > Dave Leonard**** > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:= * > *** > > David, **** > > ** ** > > My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I switched to 100LL. = I > called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he said t= hat > leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another sensor). = I > mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not to use w= ith > leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so what". So, save your money if > you're running 100LL. **** > > ** ** > > Mark S. **** > > ** ** > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard > wrote:**** > > Thanks Bobby, > > What number are you looking for for mixture?**** > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > **** > > David,**** > > **** > > Where are you injecting the water? **** > > > I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after th= e > intercooler. > **** > > Here are the few facts *I think* I know about water injections.**** > > 1. Water is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.**** > 2. Alcohol mixture allows timing advance and more HP.**** > > Those are contradictory points. For, what is it that allows more timin= g > advance other than prevention of detonation. I think you mean that water= is > better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent > increase in fuel octane as well as cooling. **** > > > 1. Injection in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D m= ore > cooling.**** > 2. Injection at the block =3D better detonation margin.**** > > what is the purpose of cooling other than improving detonation Margin?*= * > ** > > 1. Windshield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with > methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol.**** > > Not in **Southern California**. They sell blue stuff but I cant find any > rated below 20deg F (7%methanol). I even found one, a deep blue color, > going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protec= ts > from freezing down to 32 degrees!" **** > > **** > > **** > > Also a good wideband is very useful. > http://www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-displa= y-sm-afr-combo-blackIt=92s my most used instrument. > **** > > ** ** > > I Guess I should break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked. But > that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL. Ha= ve > you had any problems with 100LL?**** > > ** ** > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:24 PM**** > > > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft****** > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI? **** > > **** > > Ok, So I have the new ADI system installed and working.... I think?**** > > **** > > Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI.**** > > **** > > Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car > guys that have computers and knock sensors. All they do is turn the syst= em > on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knoc= k. > The only real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running jus= t > less than the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine. My sys= tem > is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about righ= t. > If I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bog= s > after about 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system. But when I uses a > 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol aroun= d > here, but close enough) the engine does not bog.**** > > **** > > So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed t= o > be able to lean to better power and advance the timing a little. But how > much? For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better > guide. When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there = is > a hint of roughness to the engine. I can then lean a little and the > roughness clears up. For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back = up > to where I normally limit it (890 deg C). But if I then add 5 more inche= s > of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the > sense that it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do > that... We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated > (Vne) and climbing at 500 fpm). **** > > **** > > So here are my questions:**** > > Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 ma= ke > any sense?**** > > Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it sa= fe > to lean further toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on > the turbo... I need to remember to bring the spare one to ****Reno****)*= * > ** > > How much advance do you think i can add? I was previously ruining 5 deg > ahead of ****Tracy****'s recommended initial set up. Can't give a > number because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's. How much, I > have not heard. I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monito= r. > But without a knock sensor am really in the blind.**** > > **** > > Thoughts? > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net**** > > > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net**** > > ** ** > > > > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net**** > --001517448418124d3204abae9764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=A0

What is your source for airports selling mogas?= =A0I would sure like to find something in my neck of the woods (Central Te= xas).

Mark S.

On= Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

BUR

BOB HOPE

= BURBANK=

CA

818-840-8840

100LL A MOGAS<= /font>

C39

FOLSOM LAKE=

FOLSOM<= /p>

CA

916-988-0205

MOGAS

E20

= LAKE= BERRYESSA

= NAPA=

CA

707-966-2111

MOGAS

O06

= LAKE= OROVILLE LANDING AREA

OROVILLE

CA

916-538-2200

MOGAS

H77

BRIDGE BAY RESORT

= REDDING=

CA

916-275-3021

MOGAS

0Q9

= SONOMA<= u> SKYPARK

= SONOMA<= u>

CA

707-996-2100

100LL MOGAS

=A0<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

David,

=A0<= /span>

I don=92t know how= close to you any of these airports are, but they are supposed to have Mogas and are in = California.

=A0<= /span>

Bill B

=A0<= /span>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Monday, August 29, 201= 1 4:55 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: How= to tune with ADI?

=A0

Thanks Mark,=A0

There is another nail in that coffin.=A0 I usually use 91 MOGAS when at home, but there is no where to get MOGAS at airports here in the west.

Dave Leonard

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

David,=A0

=A0

My wideband O2 sensor started acting up soon after I= switched to 100LL. =A0I called the company rep to talk about a warranty replacement and he sai= d that leaded gas will kill the sensor (and offered to sell me another sensor= ). =A0I mentioned that there was nothing on their web site that said not to us= e with leaded fuel and he (basically) said, "so what". =A0So, save your money if you're running 100LL.=A0

=A0

Mark S.=A0

=A0

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:19 PM, David Leonard <<= a href=3D"mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wdleonard@gmail.com= > wrote:

Thanks Bobby,

What number are you looking for for mixture?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <= ;bhughes@qnsi.net= > wrote:

David,

=A0<= u>

Where are you inje= cting the water?


I am injecting into the plenum just before the throttle body and after the intercooler.
=A0

Here are the few f= acts I think I know about water injections.

  1. Water = is better for detonation prevention than an alcohol mix.
  2. Alcoho= l mixture allows timing advance and more HP.

Those are contradicto= ry points.=A0 For, what is it that allows more timing advance other than prevention of detonation.=A0 I think you mean that water is better at cooling, but alcohols make up for it by providing an apparent increase in f= uel octane as well as cooling.

  1. Inject= ion in the intake some distance before the engine block =3D more cooling.
  2. Inject= ion at the block =3D better detonation margin.

what is the purpose o= f cooling other than improving detonation Margin?=

  1. Windsh= ield wiper fluid is a good alternative to dealing with methanol. Usually about 40% alcohol.<= /span>

Not in Southern California.=A0 They sell blue stuff but I cant find any rated below 20deg F (7%methanol).=A0 I even found one, a deep blue color, going for $4/gal no less, that proudly proclaimed in big letters: "Protects from freezing down to 32 degrees!"

=A0<= u>

=A0<= u>

Also a good wideba= nd is very useful. http://= www.jdmpartswholesale.com/product/plx-dm-5-wideband-o2-52mm-display-sm-afr-= combo-black It=92s my most used instrument.

=A0

I Guess I should= break down and get a WBO2 like the one you linked.=A0 But that is an expensive sensor that I will probably burn out with 100LL.=A0 Have you had any problems with 100LL?

=A0

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et

=A0<= u>

=A0<= u>

=A0<= u>

=A0<= u>

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Sunday, August 28, 201= 1 10:24 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject:= [FlyRotary] How to tune with ADI?

=A0

Ok,=A0 So I have the new ADI system installed and working....=A0 I think?=

=A0

Some of you smart racing guys probably have experience with ADI.<= /p>

=A0

Most of the instructions that come with tuning it are directed toward car guys that hav= e computers and knock sensors.=A0 All they do is turn the system on and the computer allows more advance because I is not sensing any knock.=A0 The onl= y real advise I have so for for me is that I should be running just less than= the amount of ADI that it takes to bog down the engine.=A0 My system is a fixed flow so I don't have much choice but it seems to be about right.=A0 If = I use straight water (which I did for initial testing), the engine bogs after abo= ut 10-15 seconds of ruining the ADI system.=A0 But when I uses a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol (too hard to find methanol around here, but clo= se enough) the engine does not bog.

=A0

So assuming my amount of ADI injected is about right, now I am supposed to be able to lean= to better power and advance the timing a little.=A0 But how much?=A0 For the last testing flight I was using EGT for lack of a better guide.=A0 When the ADI comes on, my EGT drops by about 30 deg C, and there is a hint of roughn= ess to the engine.=A0 I can then lean a little and the roughness clears up.=A0 For my test flight I leaned until my EFT came back up to where I normally limit it (890 deg C).=A0 But if I then add 5 more inches of MAP, there is still a hint of roughness even at 890 deg and I get the sense that= it wants to be leaned a little more. But I am afraid to do that...=A0 We are talking 45" MAP and 7300 RPM here (185 KTS indicated (Vne)=A0and climbing at 500 fpm).=A0

=A0

So here are my questions:

Is EGT a useful tool here, and does leaning to get the EGT back to 890 make any sense?

Since Methanol will do such a good job at preventing detonation, is it safe to lean furthe= r toward best power (peak EGT)? (note, that will be hard on the turbo...=A0 I need to remember to=A0bring the spare one to Reno)

How much advance do you think i can add?=A0 I=A0was previously=A0ruining 5 deg ahead of Tracy's recommended initial set up.=A0 Can't give a number=A0because the EC2 retards the timing with higher MAP's.=A0 How much, I have not heard.=A0= I can easily add one deg at a time using Ed's EFI monitor.=A0 But without= a knock sensor am really in the blind.

=A0

Thoughts?=A0

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et

=A0




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.n= et


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